There might well be something wrong with the way we play .
This is a team that played in the championship and can be argued that barring crooks is the same team. Ferguson is as good as we have had and Rathbone is a good signing. Has crooks sale weakend us to the point we can't create a threat ?
We won plenty of the ball yesterday. Indeed, we had more crosses, more corners and even more passing incursions into their box . Yet, apart from sadlier who had 3 shots , barring the v good pen save , I can remember a wiles effort early in the first half , a soft poke by Kayode, and a gilt edge chance by smudge. In contrast they scored 2 easy goals. Is the tale of the tape that we simply don't have the quality and what we saw in the championship was a team on absolutely full tilt but consistently falling short . I think it was. Consequently, we have arrived a floor further down and are finding the quality to be as good and better than we were ...
We have seen us huff and puff and squeeze the ball over the line for a few seasons and relying on that is very costly in energy and clearly hit and miss. Its early days still , but we just don't look as cutting edge as we have done in previous seasons at this level. It might just be the team don't believe as they did, a few are jaded perhaps and thus we need that kind of help most teams come to cry out for . A team needs to know it's defence is reliable and it has a man up front who can score with quality. I don't think the team has the belief in the latter.
In the absence of another striker coming in it seems to me sadlier is still the only player who can see the goal. If he's played a little deeper with Smith and either go 443 with Kayode who is pretty good with his defensive work, or try a 352 with sadlier looking more like a player who can feed of Smith. He has a quick football brain and a quick and clean shot.
If this isn't acceptable to the coaches then the change has to come from deeper and this means a lot riding on the defensive presence of a player we haven't seen yet-Odoffin. If he's any good then he can be tried in front of a back 5. We need to find a way to win ...and with injuries in a squad short on quality we need to shore up defensively against the better teams.
-- Edited by ian on Sunday 22nd of August 2021 01:38:36 PM
I think there is a lot of overreaction to be honest. We have six points from four games. Not a disaster. The two games we won, we were much the better side. The two defeats were to two of the supposed big hitters in the league. That can happen, and isnt something to get too excited about. If Barlasers header goes in at Wigan we get something there. If Sadlier had converted the penalty yesterday the game would have run a different course. Fine margins and in key moments it hasnt gone our way. In other games it will. The important thing for me is that in general play we have probably had the better of all four games. The games to date suggest to me that we needn't fear anyone and that we will do alright, but there are some other good teams in league one and it wont always go our way. When did we become a club that is so arrogant that we expect to steamroller our way through league one?
I don’t think it is an over reaction or arrogant to point out that we do not have the strikers to be successful. This has gone on for more than one season and is a ongoing problem. The last time we had 2 strikers who worked together in partnership were Moore and Procter, that was only briefly.
I was talking about the broader reaction of supporters IWAVP. My post followed yours in the thread but wasnt a response to yours. On this board, on other boards, on the radio and at the games there is already discontent from fans who seem to expect that we will win every game and know exactly where we go wrong if we dont win. There does seem to be an air of expectation and entitlement that is neither rational nor realistic. There are some big clubs in this division with big resources and they all think they should be up near the top as well. Some probably have a better shot at it than we do. By the way, the Warne bashers were having a go at Warne for not playing Kayode in the Championship. Now some of those same people are saying he isnt good enough for League One. Easy for them to move on though isnt it, when they arent accountable? The truth is probably that the lad has some promise but he still has plenty to learn. He isnt ready to be our main man yet, but he might be one day. But that sort of thing doesnt fit the here and now 'hit or miss' imperative.
Kayode is a young lad who in most clubs would be fifth choice. Talented and a lot to learn. My issue is that our strikers did not score enough to stay up and I don’t see them scoring enough for us to mount a realistic challenge. I am long time supporter but because of that I do not like it when obvious problems are ignored. Players are out there for some reason we do not get them. It would be easy to blame finance.
Ledapo is not good enough his body language yesterday was of a player who does not want to be here. That leaves us with only Michael Smith. I hope for the best but when looked at realistically we are well short.
Sadlier played there for Donny in this league, sadlier will be another player that leaves us with the fans on his back and a manager that cannot manage him, he will move on and score for his next team like yates and JCH, as fans we have little patience with playes that aren't world beaters, look at crooks how much stick he got from fans, unbeleiveable the stick we give to players. We have always been the same at Rotherham from when i first started to watch in the early 70's we have two types of player, heros and villans and so often we are wrong about both.
barlasar game on yesterday and did absolutely nothing, every set piece went way over everyone or hit the first defender yet do we get people saying he is useless? No we don't, we play footballers out of position like sadlier and then moan they don't set the world on fire, yet ogbene can run fast and he is the best thing since sliced bread, how many assists does ogbene get? How many goals does he get? Ho many crosses does he put into the box? His pace gives us an outlet and makes defenders nervous but there is little end product, kayode could play up front all season and he won't score 6 goals, he isn't ready, also when he was on loand and did well didn'yt he play out wide?
I dont say any of our players are useless. Some are better than others. I saw Sadlier play quite a bit at Donny. For a start, he was by no means an automatic choice there and was often on the bench. Donny supporters constantly had the same sort of discussions about him as we are doing now i.e. should he be starting and if so where? He often played as a wide midfielder for them and often played as the most advanced midfield player behind two strikers. But he is more of a midfield player than a striker. He is no more out of position as an attacking wing back than as a number ten, although his lack of pace will be more exposed when he plays wide and I am not sure what his appetite is for working up and down. I would pick any of our other five midfield players ahead of him in midfield, and he would only play off a lone striker for me if we really had no other options. I dont like him out wide. Personally if I could I would get him off the wage bill, let him go somewhere where he was going to get more games, and use the funds freed up to help us strengthen in areas where our need is greater. I like him as a midfield player but we have others in there who I like more. That's an attempt at a balanced view, and has nothing to do with the fact that he missed a penalty yesterday. Those things can happen.
I didnt go but something is wrong somewhere,
Ladapo dropped due'virus' jj lets be honest should be coming on a as sub.
Its been obvious for two seasons now ladapo and smith dont click for what ever reason, and that is warnes fault.
Im giving it 3 more matches if we lose to donny through been toothless then the imo the muttering will become.louder
We don't look strong enough to be a top 6 side on present information. Paul Davis predicted a midtable finish the other week.
We were not good enough for the championship and look a few players short for a chance in the play offs.
The team has so far performed in a similar fashion to last season . Ifs, and buts don't count at all. Working with elite athletes as I've been told but can quite see for myself is the difference in 100s and even 10ths of a second. A fraction more power, skill and endurance makes a result positive or negative. The number one in a sport beats the number 2 almost unequivocally. It might be 1-nil in football or 3 sets to 2 in tennis or a wicket in cricket...those margins are actually very big. Its the same with intelligence or personality...they don't change too much once created and if they do if continues to be that there is a gap or distinction. My point is that we have won 2 and out 2 and that will extrapolate to us being off the pace. PW knows we need that extra quality up front and if we get it it could change our team into one that can compete and score rather than one that might score.
Back to the main issue with what we have. Sadlier looks to me to be worth putting up front. He shoots and is positive all round. He is the only player we have that is like that. Freddie, I believe should be playing more too because the stats support his inclusion regardless of his swagger and apparent lack of touch.
PW and the coaching staff seem to think that neither saddlier nor freddie is good enough because they didn't get much of a run in the championship. We of course were relegated.
The fear that the coaching staff have is conceding and that trumps in their minds the chances of us scoring. I suspect if there could be 2 teams playing in parallel universes one with freddie and sadlier and one without then we'd get more points with than without. Impossible and a bit maverick of me to say or prove, but it illustrated the point of the problem we have. We didn't score enough in our championship seasons and worryingly we currently have less of a point to our attack than either of our last 3 seasons at this level.
I hope we don't lose the ground we have built up over the last decade . We may have to settle for a few seasons in L1 . Time will tell.
This season will very much depend on a little more quality coming in. Hats off to the recruitment of both rathbone and ferguson. We haven't seen one or two others yet so I have some hope they may bring some more solidity to the team which is one way that I'm sure the coaching staff think we might build to have a more potent midfield.
-- Edited by ian on Monday 23rd of August 2021 05:55:08 PM
We've played four games. Hardly enough to extrapolate and predict the final league table. Neither is it enough to fully assess any side. Performance-wise there is room for improvement but despite that we have been the better side in all four games. A fit Ladapo will score in this division. He didnt start regularly in the Championship because we rarely felt able to play with two out and out strikers. We often used Crooks to bridge the gap between Smith and the midfield. That shouldn't be taken as being indicative of a lack of trust in him. It was a case of horses for courses. It will not be the case in League One. Sadlier has some ability but in this poster's opinion he is also quite slow, quite lightweight, quite wasteful in possession, doesnt have the strikers instinct that Ladapo has and is not the answer up front.
For perspective, after five games of the 2019/20 league one season we had seven points. We had started with an unfamiliar 433 formation. Our two wins were unconvincing performances at Wimbledon and Burton and we had lost a local derby at Doncaster after dominating the first half. People were criticising our transfer business and we were struggling to get any fluency in our play. Does any of that sound familiar? Although the season was slightly truncated, thirty games later we were promoted in second place.
In his post Ian talks about the fear of conceding. I don't think it just applies to the millers. In 52 games in our league this season only 109 goals have been scored. Wednesday and Portsmouth have yet to concede in the league but have only scored five and four goals, in four games. The lack of quality and flair has been missing in this division for years. When we went up with Coventry, both sides were better at defending than attacking and ground out wins. That will be the same this year.
I think it is main reason Barlaser is so hit and miss. The style of play we employ in div one and the championship does not allow a player like him to flourish. The first thought for nearly all teams is to keep it tight with big physical defenders, press as high up as possible and use free kicks and corners as your main weapon. Wednesday apparently didn't outplay us or score with flair. There two goals came from our individual mistakes. This will be a pattern in most games this season imo.
I do not see us flirting with the bottom of this league even if we let Smith go. I am pretty sure we would get a replacement if he was to go. I think we will be on the cusp of the top eight most of the season. I also think because we have not the financial clout or will that we will finish around 9th. Not the end of the world but will leave some clamouring for change in the management. Not sure that would be a good idea unless more money was made available to a new manager which i do not see happening.
Have we the players to change our style and play the ball through midfield and use the channels instead of the hoof ball?. Not sure. It has to start from the goalkeeper and play out from the back. Ihiekwe and Wood at times look ok but there first touch sometimes let them down. Harding should be ok. From what i have seen of Green a lot of work needs to go in but it's early days for him. Mattock no. Let us hope Bola has the skill coming from Arsenal academy. No doubt Barlaser,Wiles and Rathbone would benefit from a passing game. Lindsay could be the work horse but i would hope Odoffin might be a better option once he settles in and makes the holding midfield role his. He comes with a big reputation. The wide men have to get closer to the striker/s and not just run the wide lines. To play this way which i believe we will not,although think we should, would need a new coach coming in. If we carry on with the same we will be competitive and go close. That i believe is the easy way out and would not help develop some of our better players.
A bit of a mish mash of a post but i hope some of it makes sense and will add to the discussion.
At times we show that we can retain possession and pass the ball as well as anyone. After we scored at Morecambe we looked like a very good footballing side for a while with Wiles and Rathbone in particular pulling the strings.
Unfortunately at times our play gets a bit frantic. We seem to be drilled to get the ball out wide asap and get a cross into the box asap. Doing that at times is fine, but no team can play that sort of high energy high tempo game for ninety minutes and it makes us a bit predictable.
There will be times to employ a high pressing, high energy game where we put lots of balls into the box, win second balls, keep it in there, get set pieces etc. That is good. There will also be times when we need or choose to concede ground and counter attack. We have some pace in the side to enable us to do it. And there will be times when we should keep possession, slow the game down, stretch the opposition and create openings.
I think the key word here is balance. At the moment we perhaps don't quite have the balance right, which gives the impression that we are a bit one-dimensional.
I agree with you that if we carry on as we are we will be fine. I also agree with you when you say (if I have understood you correctly) that if we can get more of a mix into our play we would do better.
Yes i was saying we need to get more of a mix Smiler. I also think we need some fresh ideas in the coaching set up. I am certainly not saying we need to sack anybody but just another face to give us new ideas to move on to the next level. We are not far off and if we could get another striker in that would help enormously.
First of all we have played 5 games and not 4 (we lost 3). We have only beaten promoted teams, we have scored 1 goal against other non-promoted teams and that was by the guy everyone thinks can't play. We cannot ignore cup games just because we tend to lose them and fail to get any sort of run in any cup in Warnes time, we are short of money that is a good revenue source and shouldn't be ignored. I think smiler makes a good point about over reaction and about bigger clubs in the league, however I do not think it is arrogant to point out obvious issues at the club or the management of the team, we are fans we watch the games and as fans we want us to do well. This idea of getting a replacement if smith goes!! we have 7 days and a very poor record in the transfer windows when it comes to strengthening the front line, two championship seasons when we were still in with a good chance we decided not to gamble on bringing in a potential goal scorer, as I have said before if you don't score you don't win and stikers that need 5 chances a game to get 1 on target is not going to help. Regarding Kayode, he is raw and young and has potential he should not be first choice at the moment, he will end up like other young forwards we have had over the years that get put under pressure too quick and end up moving on. At the end of the day warne has one style he wants to play, work hard, get it forward quick, get crosses into the box and play percentage football, by hoping you are still in the game with 20 minutes to go. Our plan B is to do the same with different players and we play too many players out of their natural position. We all know we have limited resources so it is even more important to maximise every revenue channel open to us, reduce unecessary cost (mattocks wages!!) and make calculated risks when their is increased probability of us suffering by focusing too much on the bottom line. I think now is one of those times, I think we have to get someone in to play upfront in this window, it should also be a different style of forward. I do think fresh coaching ideas are needed, the tactics look stale and one dimensional. however i do not think that any of that will happen, we also won't start sadlier against Donny behind the front two and we will just try the same tactics hoping that a team out of form will fail against us. I know I come across as a glass half empty guy but that is because i keep seeing Smiler topping up his glass from mine
-- Edited by derbymiller on Tuesday 24th of August 2021 05:50:12 PM
As you know Derby, the Accrington game was not a good guide to anything. We played a mix of fringe players, brand new signings and players who needed a run out to help their fitness. I was very obviously looking at games in which we put out what the manager thought was our strongest side. That is clearly the fairest way to judge, although some people might choose not to see it that way. I hope you would acknowledge that there is some measured criticism of the management team in much of what I post on here but that is up to you. Final point for now - Plymouth were in League One last season.
You got me on Plymouth, it was the year before they were promoted, I stand corrected :)
You are missing my point on the cup game, my point is there is a tendency by pro-warne fans to ignore his record in cup competitions and play the, "priority is the league" or the "we played a weakened side" excuse, the bottom line is that cup games are a source of revenue TC was quoted at the time saying that we got £500k+ from the City game a few years ago (as i remember you disputed that, but perhaps because it didn't suit your arguments at the time), I think we have to take TC's word on that. You are always quick to say we have limited budget and should live within our means but then support the manager in failing to deliver results that would improve the situation and hopefully allow him to improve his squad. Also you cannot dismiss the result out of hand, we lost the game we have played 5 and lost 3, these are facts.
occassional you do make challenging comments about the management team, but overall you are wear very, very, very rose tinted glasses in support of them and always have a reason (excuse!!) to explain away their short comings. You are perfectly entitled to do that and to have those views, but not all of us have those views and because they are different from yours it doesn't make them wrong.
We will just have to agree to differ and time will tell what happens this season
