Not sure why it eats at you so much Derby, but at least we have it - a must win game. All those other must win games - if only we had drawn a couple of them, hey?
.... same starting team for Cardiff for me with exception of Lindsey for Wiles (I think Wiles needs a proper rest ready for next season... I think he's a great player - he just looks knackered)
smiler, but we lost them and we will go down because Warne is not good enough for this league and his so called wonderful management cannot motivate his players to perform in critical games against teams around us on a regular basis. Do you think warne would be able to get a team that haven't been paid to get to the place wednesday are in, for me he is a lovely guy that is liked by people but with limited abilities. I know others do not agree, and that is fine, we still (just) live in a world where some degrees of free speech is allowed.
Derbymiller you and i seem to be in agreement this issue is with coaching and management team
Warne needs new ideas and a defensive coach.
And what u betting the formation will.accomodate mattock
We we're fairly poor. Luton were fairly poor. Our season has been poor. A very few , maybe 3 or 4 good performances. Good that is in terms of this level.
The point about budgets is very relevant of course. However, Coventry have said they have the 2nd lowest budget . Luton also have claimed that too.
It seems a badge of honour to be poor. Where's the prosperity Gospel when it's needed .
Relativity is the key . We are poor by champs standards. Over a season that monetary poverty has translated to trying to drag ourselves over the line.
smiler, but we lost them and we will go down because Warne is not good enough for this league and his so called wonderful management cannot motivate his players to perform in critical games against teams around us on a regular basis. Do you think warne would be able to get a team that haven't been paid to get to the place wednesday are in, for me he is a lovely guy that is liked by people but with limited abilities. I know others do not agree, and that is fine, we still (just) live in a world where some degrees of free speech is allowed.
They weren't must win games though. They were 'be great to win or if not a point would be useful' games. I think we played in some of them - particularly the Wycombe game - as if it was win or bust and looked a bit frantic, and it backfired. I am not ruling out the possibility that Warne might have done better in managing the mindset.
I have never used the word 'wonderful' to describe Warne's management. I have never seen anyone else use that description either. I think he is a good manager who makes mistakes as they all do sometimes, but who is generally doing a good job against all odds.
I think Sheffield Wednesday have massive (no pun intended) problems. They have a number of excellent players - probably a squad that should on paper be mid table or above - but something is badly wrong there and it probably goes well beyond the playing staff. They are probably paying Barry Bannan, Jordan Rhodes and Adam Reach combined more in a week than our squad earns. From their point of view, it is embarrassing that they need us to not win our final game for them to have a chance of staying up..
I do think that Warne would have kept Wednesday up. I am basing that opinion on the fact that he inherited a club firmly on its backside when he first started as our manager, and was able to turn a rock bottom already doomed to relegation team with very few decent players and desperately low morale into a league one promotion winning side in fairly quick time. He put some pride back into the club. It was the sort of turnaround that sometimes takes two or three seasons and he got there quickly. I don't think he gets enough credit for that. Wednesday at least have a number of players of genuinely Championship quality in their ranks as a starting point, which we didn't have then and don't have now, so I suspect that he could have improved them in fairly short order. We will never know though.
There hasn't been such a thing as free speech for as long as humans have been able to speak. In my opinion there is (at least in this country) more freedom of speech and more opportunity to exercise it now than there ever has been. But that is a different subject for a different thread on the other side of the board.
I have to admit I am not a football strategist, never played the game nor do I analyse the game/ players; I watch the game for the thrill and excitement. As a consequence I rarely enter into debate around formations, who should play where etc. But I do hold an opinion about the club, how it is run and how it is managed.
Normally I'm in the smiler/Glenn camp when it comes to these issues, however I find myself on this occasion being more aligned with derbymiller, Hillsborough miller, and Brad. I look back over this season and see a carbon copy of style of play, decision making, team selection, and subs bench and substitution timing, i.e subbing like for like when the game plan needs changing.
When we were relegated from the Evans promotion, TS publicly stated that the next time we would be better prepared. We were promoted with Warne and were relegated with the worst record in the Championship history, probably the worst record in the clubs history too at a guess. Promoted a year after and yet here we are again, the league's points donators. Have we been better prepared?
I expected us to struggle, of course I did, but I did expect that by now we would have worked out a strategy that would give us fighting chance to put the wedge in and gain some vestige of a foothold in the division. But once again we may well have failed again. We're like the spider in the bath trying to get out, time and again reach so far then slipping back down unable to go further.
Yet we have, at least, a nucleus of a capable squad, who I am sure with the right psychological approach and coaching could make the basis of a squad of players who could be the ones to stop the perpetual yo-yo. I believe Ian also alluded to something like this approach on a previous thread.
I'm not calling for sackings, but I believe copying a previously failed approach will only lead to the same outcome. Warne, I believe, could well be the man for the job, but fresh thinking is now required if we as a club are ever going to advance.
A final point, off topic. I'd just like to say how refreshing this site has become with debates conducted in a friendly manner despite disagreements, now Toot and Ploot have disappeared Debate with mutual respect is a pleasure to be part of, evan if, as in my case, a very small part. Thanks guys.
I am constantly tempted-in my imagined role of owner of RIFC- to sack PW and his staff. However, I'm also convinced that no one could have done much better over the season. Its not a failure to win games in the last 12, but a failure over 46. Its not a failure to put chances away, but a failure to not have a striker good enough, or have an actual striker on the pitch. Its not a failure to have poor strikers , but a failure to be able to purchase a good one.
I prefer PW to stay as I prefer what I know to what I don't when the margins are so important. A gamble could and probably would see us tumbling out of the divisions like Yeovil and many others. No Way. No Thanks.
PW, is not a good manager. He is about average Steve Evans was marginally better Ronnie Morre was even better. Neil Warnick is a great manager .
PW, brings something unique however that is probably worth perseverance. He does bring very precious promise of stability.
My hope for next season is that PW can learn some very rudimentary and golden rules concerning substitutions, tactics, selection and formation.
I agree with smilers excellent point that PW did indeed rebuild a side that was good enough to get us out of L1 . That was a great achievement. However, regardless of where we are next season I don't have the same faith based on what I think is a gap in his knowledge. This is purely based on observation and comparing like with like. We really need someone else to mentor PW.
I
-- Edited by ian on Wednesday 5th of May 2021 09:50:28 PM
In december in Blackpool in the first promotion, we played some of the worst football I had seen by a Rotherham team in many a year, then in the last few minutes 2 goals by a talented, intelligent footballer turn defeat into victory. At that game most fans were calling for warnes head and it was heavily rumoured that he was going to be sacked if we lost, we improved after that and got into the playoffs and won. We had a striker for half a season that scored 15 goals before the end of December, without him we would never have made the playoffs. My points are:
1. we need a goalscorer someone that doesnt get dragged wide and end up crossing to an empty box, we need some that touches the ball mostly in the last 3rd and scores most of their goals from the 6 yard box.
2. Do not be afraid to play a skillful player that can create for others and has the skill to turn a quarter chance into a goal (I think we have that in Sadlier)
If we continue with the same one dimensional approach we will not do as well next season. We can play football and when we do it creates chances, we did this on Tuesday night and all the commentators spotted it and stated it.
Some of the football that Rotherham played against Luton, albeit sporadically - patient, short passes, running off the ball - was sublime. That proves to me that we have the quality to compete at this level. The problem is, it happens so infrequently. There are many reasons, amongst them, lack of confidence, exhaustion and desperation are right up there whilst we are fighting for survival. If we can pull off a minor miracle tomorrow, there's every reason to be confident that we can build on our Championship credentials next season. However, I have to agree Derbymiller's observation that a goalscorer is absolutely imperative.
I remember well the Blackpool game to which Derby refers. Topically, as there are those who point to JCH as a missed gem given his excellent season with Peterborough, I remember him putting in what in my view was one of the most disinterested and lacklustre performances I have ever seen from a Rotherham player. If I recall rightly he was taken off at half time and never played for us again. There were plenty calling for Warnes head and just as many calling for JCH to never pull on our shirt again. Some of the JCH fans are amongst those who also criticise us for signing players who have had serious injuries, but they perhaps forget both that JCH had a cruciate ligament injury and that Warne gave him a lifeline with a one year contract extension after that injury, and that JCH did nothing with the opportunity. All by the by. Just musings.
I liked David Ball (who scored those goals at Blackpool) but he struggled with the pace of the Championship. I like very much the idea of a ball playing number ten and like everyone else a top class finisher would help us no end. Someone to do those jobs at Championship level is something we have struggled to find in our forays at that level. We have had strikers who might get ten or eleven a season, and have never had that player capable of a bit of magic. With respect, I don't think Sadlier is that man either. Not at the present level. I think it comes down to money. Those players cost precisely because they are in such demand. We took a punt that Jozefzoon might give us that bit extra, or that Hirst might find his feet as a regular goalscorer but they haven't worked out.
I am not excusing Warne's approach, but I think his starting point is that we probably cannot afford the players to enable us to go toe to toe against most teams in this division, so we have to find other ways to compete and harvest enough points. Earlier this season we played some good football and at times looked very capable of holding our own. Again not making excuses, but in the last ten or a dozen games a combination of fatigue, having to change the team so much and also perhaps desperation for points has resulted in us being a bit more (too) predictable and less willing to try and play.
I agree that if we go down we should try and shape the bones of a good squad - which we will have - and add sensibly where possible with a view to playing in a more progressive way. That would help us with the problem we had last season with breaking down teams who came to NYS and sat behind the ball. We sometimes didn't have the craft to unlock their defences. Whether we can realistically aim to succeed in the Championship in the same manner I'm not so sure. Warnock got the best results of any modern day Millers manager, but he did it with very little possession, playing very attritional football with Halford and Smallwood sitting in front of a back four and making us hard to beat. It's a difficult circle to square.
-- Edited by smiler on Friday 7th of May 2021 04:55:24 PM
Smiler good points on JCH, you are correct he was awful and was rightly taken off.
I agree getting the type of player I mention at championship level will be beyond our budget unless we have one in the academy or a lower league player that we are lucky with.
Sadlier has not played enough games in the championship to be judged one way or another, I was on about next season in league 1. I do think we can afford a different type of forward in league 1 because we cannot hide behind the budget every season.
As was pointed out on other chats Sadlier was our flagship signing last summer and he had a bad injury, he has started 2 games, I think any reasonable person would say a player needs a run of starts before being judged, that lad has not had them. We didn't break teams down in league 1 last time and our home form was very poor for a top 6 side, so it is clear that we have to be able to change our style and approach to deal with the different demands of playing at home compared to away. Warne has said he likes wingers, and he likes crosses in the box, I agree the more crosses the more chances, that is a maths issue. If we get 6 balls onto Smiths head in a game he is likely to get at least two on target, and ladapo is no header of a ball. So if we go for the winger and crosses approach we need a forward that can head a ball. I think a league 1 season will be interesting for us under warne to see if he learns and adapts or persists with the same approach.
We seem to have almost agreed on a few things, Derby.
I have liked Sadlier when I have seen him before and was pleased we signed him, but I never saw him as a flagship signing. If we had a flagship signing in the Summer, I think it was probably Barlaser. When Sadlier has played this season I think he has looked short of a yard of pace to be honest and not ever so strong on the ball. You are right that he hasn't had a run of games though, and I certainly haven't given up on him.
Good luck to Warne and the players tonight, we need to give it 110% and a bit of luck and coolness in front of goal
Same today Derby, Luck has been against us most of the season, espcially in key recent games like Barnsley and Midddlesbro etc...
After today we can look forward and in one way or another. The pressure will be off (don't know about others but I didn't sleep much last night with the permutations on my mind) and we can turn our discussion to next season's signings....
