Brexit to me it's about giving the UK back to the UK. That's why the country voted to leave. Locally be same in other parts of the country it's just a dumping ground for East Europeans who've put nothing in, taking out. Living like gypsies. Politicians aren't bothered they never see it.

smiler agree some of our people are as bad. But look at parts of Sheffield & Rotherham. Rotherham town centre is a ghost town. I live close, never go there. You shouldn't be able to come into our country just straight on benefits. Use our National health system ect... If we went to another country & was taken badly they would leave you to die there unless you had health insurance. You sound like our politicians who don't care about the problems they cause being here & the cost. I voted to leave solely to sort immigration out.

I'll put it another way gwru. If the eastern Europeans leave town, do you seriously think that all the shops that we remember in the town centre from 30 years ago will all reopen? And the Odeon? Or that the town centre will be buzzing again on a Friday and Saturday night? Were the Poles responsible for Woolworths going bust? When the eastern Europeans close their shops on Wellgate what is going to replace them? Or will they just become empty? When you have had your way, what do you expect to see when you go for your long awaited walk into town?

The immigration factor has always been a way of controlling the populace. For centuries governments have used the 'Johnny foreigner' and immigration as a way of keeping down wages while taking advantage of housing shortages to hike up profits from higher rents. the ensuing discontent is blamed on the bogie man to detract attention from the sculduggery of government.

I voted leave simply for democratic reasons as I see the EU as a corrupt totalitarian regime run by a bunch of get rich quick self serving cowboys. There is no democracy. We elect MEPs but their purpose is simply to rubber stamp the prospectus of the unelected commissioners. Also the way Greece was used and fiscally raped by the EU and now in effect owned by Germany and others is the worse obscenity of modern time; in this case it was blamed on the '****less Greeks' themselves. They also committed a crime against the Irish people when the European Central Bank put pressure on the Irish president to transfer the losses of, mainly German investors, to be put onto the books of the Irish state!!!! Surely that is a crime, isn't it. the Eu making the Irish people pay the losses of private investors in Greece? Is that working for a better Europe?

Also I am old enough to remember when we had a manufacturing industry, huge fishing fleets, and were self sufficient in energy. The downward spiral of the countries fortunes and decline in all our industry happened after we joined the the Common Market and we were subjected to quotas which ravaged the steel industry and fisheries. Strangely enough Germany and France' industries did not suffer. They still have productive steel works, build cars, and design and build aircraft. The Germans still make Dorniers for heavens sake. From being a World leader we now make almost nothing. A low skilled, low waged economy, which has to buy in rather than export and make money.

But back to the main topic. The Brexit negotiations have been a farce from start to finish. It was designed to be complex and protracted and also damaging to the country in order to put off any other countries from leaving the federation. There was no way we were going to be allowed a fair and proper deal; the EU has shown its true colour by its mean, spiteful and unhelpful attitude expressed publicly, expressly to frighten and punish us.

Smiler is right to say that Cameron expected us to vote to remain otherwise we wouldn't have been granted a say in it. I was shocked the friday morning after the referendum but said to Towdlass that they would not allow us to leave. One way or another it would be in name only. Yanis Varoufakis, has described it as the Hotel California…You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave. It seems that is the way it is to be.

I don't pretend to understand the minutiae of the deal, frankly I'm bored with it, confident in the knowledge that our democratic choice will be overridden. The Tories are in complete melt down and desperately clinging to power and when the deal is put before Parliament its my guess that it will be endorsed by MPs (most of whom are 'Remainers' in any case) and supported by many Blairite Labour members. This is because to vote it down would surely have to trigger another General Election with the possibility of a Labour victory, and we can't have that can we. So again I agree with smiler that the Tories are simply trying to cling to power and probably going to drag the country down with them….and then blame the other bogie man Jeremy Corbyn,

The answer to Smiler is simply to say that all Government puts party and self interest before the country except perhaps the 1945 Labour Government. Government are lobbied, influenced and funded and bribed, by big wealthy organisations. You cannot run a country for the benefit of all based on market forces. We only have to look at the collapse of Corillian costing the tax payer at least £148m and goodness knows how many jobs, peoples lives being wrecked. Its always the ordinary people who pay the price, as we pay for austerity we didn't cause, unless you want to blame the Poles of course.

I voted to stop in the reason being everybody who argued to stay or leave agreed nothing would change over immigration 2 years later we have got a government who couldn't run a chip shop and with the prospect of lord snooty and his gang taking control. I'm no fan of the Tories but Mrs May's the best of a bad bunch I will give her some credit no matter what happens she carries on I agree with Towdlad when it comes to a vote in parliament my guess it could be a free vote with the two choices this deal being the least of two evils. I see the the boss of Rolls Royce has come out in favour of this deal big business could play a part in changing some MP's minds.

I said the day after the referendum that we would not leave the EU, I even posted the same on here. I didn't know of course how it was going to be done or when but it was as plain as a pike staff we were not going to be allowed to opt out, democracy or no.

The present situation with the Tory party is of a preordained ruse. Its obvious now that the EU was going to be bullish and its my guess with British assent, since the establishment clearly wanted to remain. Enter 'Operation Obstruction and Fear' making sure the whole process will be long winded, complicated and unworkable and descend into chaos designed to make the whole bag of mashings unworkable, resulting in a second referendum as Exeter says and this time the remainders will win. They will win because the remain camp got organised immediately after the results; they are funded and bank rolled by the likes of Blair and other big organisations here and abroad. And don't think there isn't plenty of big goings on behind the scenes to promote it.

They will win because they are organised and the Brexiteers are getting fed up with it and resigned to the fact we are going to be shafted, just as the Danish were told to think again when they voted against the Maastricht Treaty; three times they were told to vote again until they got the vote Brussels wanted. In addition to Ireland being told to vote again both on the Nice and Lisbon Treaties; being 're-educated' on the consequences between each vote. Strange how we sneer and even bomb other Countries in order to impose freedom and democracy while at the same time the EU:-

"For all their concerns with global competitiveness, migration and terrorism, only one prospect truly terrifies the Powers of Europe: Democracy! They speak in democracy’s name but only to deny, exorcise and suppress it in practice. They seek to co-opt, evade, corrupt, mystify, usurp and manipulate democracy in order to break its energy and arrest its possibilities."

Enter Brexit

The above quote is from the manifesto of the European Spring movement and I sincerely hope that the momentum being built up by the movement can succeed in engineering reform within the EU itself, otherwise we are all going to be really done for without us realising it

/diem25.org/tag/european-spring/

If any of you guys are really interested in freedom and democracy as I am, I strongly urge you to check out the link. It may even change the mind of a few remainers.

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

There is no such thing as “no deal” between the UK and the soon-to-be rump EU.
In the absence of a bi-lateral UK-EU trade agreement after Brexit, two-way trade between the UK and the Continent will continue, perfectly legally, on World Trade Organisation (WTO) terms.
At Bretton Woods in 1944, the UK (whose delegation included John Maynard Keynes) was one of 23 founder-countries of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which morphed into the WTO in 1995. The WTO currently has more than 160 member-countries. Today, 74 years after Bretton Woods, global customs duties (which are levied only on cross-border trade in goods: trade in services is tariff-free) average a little over one per cent of the underlying value of the goods traded.
HM Revenue & Customs, one of the most efficient customs bodies in the world, assesses the bulk of duties electronically, that is to say remotely: not at Dover, Felixstowe or other ports. Other developed countries’ customs bodies also assess duties remotely.
The US has no deal (free trade agreement) with the EU. China has no deal (free trade agreement) with the EU. Yet, though neither country is a member of the EU, both export more goods to continental EU than the UK.
Immediately after Brexit, it is probable that the UK will trade with the EU on the basis of “no deal”, without a specific UK-EU trade agreement. If, post-Brexit, the UK and the EU conclude that a specific bilateral free trade agreement is in their interests, they can set one up.

I think there may be too much fear and thus complication. This democracy thing is much valued but its also not really what it says on the tin.

Whether I have had many lives before or not, it is still probably the best time to be alive. It has to be said that for westerners the last 70 years has been a relative paradise. I dont equate that precisely with the EU , but there is something about alliances and none more powerful than financial and trade ties. Even so, it may not be as powerful as ideas of self-preservation in other forms. Nationalism, cultural identity, language, general features of creatures, and old blood ties are perhaps more powerful.

There really shouldn't be any problem with a country voting, which is by far the most civilised way of doing things , and then in good faith the Governance of the country or tribe or whatever goes into action on behalf of the majority. Of course, Im just kidding.

It never ever has happened like that. Sadly, its a myth, and as Towldlad has said beautifully we are constantly corrupted, confused, confined, and crippled. Democracy does this! But, its the best of a whole load of evil that can be visited on humans by other humans.

We have so many examples of the failings of democracy that it should be obvious that its a very broken and sometimes very Evil organisational tool. Indeed, its very difficult to judge the merits of democracy without endless wading through the history of humankind and disappearing up one's own bottom.

I voted to leave based on my instinct that the EU is a tyrant. It takes more than it gives. It is entirely unconnected and unrelated to the idea of democracy. It is very dirty and purposely obstructive. It is not a democracy. It is a centralised form of power. very centralised. It is not representative. It is very scary. It is very far removed from the people. It is very close to the behemoth of 1984. Very close.

I would ove to continue to see Europeans come and live here and brighten up our sometimes dull cultural lifes. Much is lost with the passing of time and new blood and ideas are welcome. However, it seems that this monster wont let us have a variety of views and tastes. It seems also that most wantonly continue to express the view that this is a black and white issue. I think the truth is that people voted the way they did for their own reasons and that I think should be upheld.

I doubt the world will come to an end or our country perishes, but some may indeed lose their jobs. Uncomfortably, many British people have already lost their jobs due to immigration. This is after all how life itself works. There cannot be two people where once there was one doing the same job. In many parts of the country, this probably has driven down wages, resulting in job losses and a huge pain.

So, I think I have to confess that I like most people cannot foresee the pros and cons of Brexit. I don't want anyone to suffer because of my vote or ignorance, but I am as ignorant as most others and my vote was in good faith. Now the vote has been done that same ignorance suggests to me that the country and indeed the world will be much better off if democracy is seen to be honoured. After all, the tide will keep rolling and moeny and power will continue to war with the better human instincts. One way or another the powerful will rise and fall and take many innocnets with them, but, this should be , at least , a time for the bare and undiluted voice of a peoples to be upheld. If we cant honour this basic expression then we are might truly be said to be nothing but individually corrupt and dishonourable.

Yes, I was indeed thinking of the fens and surrounding district. I have no first-hand evidence of working or living in these more rural and essential areas of mainly manual and supported economies. I did infer from the strength of the vote that there must be some actual real hard-lived experience of locals not being able to find casual work, which they would have relied on for years. Indeed, I know this might be very true based on the people I meet every day who mainly work in service industries. Some of those are seasonal and they rely on 2-3 jobs at a time to make up tax credits. It must be an absolute nightmare to watch your income go up and down each month especially with children and the many depressed parents and single parent families. I can understand the vitriol and I do think some of it must be true. Ironically, many of the Eastern Europeans I know live in exactly the same manner; Heavily in debt, relying on tax credits and under immense stress with young children-welcome to the dream!

I do wonder what it means to say someone is a net contributor. I will be honest, I think I may have met one person in my entire life who might fit that description. Whatever makes the world go round is not down to the direct work of the many, but the exploitation by the few. I can't think of an individual job that doesn't take more than it rightly earns ( much of the issues that confront us are greed and suspicion born from that insecurity). I suspect it is like the way people think of God. Someone, somewhere and somehow set it all running and now we just suffer, exploit and dream in it, thinking and attributing all acts and actions as belonging to us. Monopoly the board game?

History shouts loud, and this changing hegemony has been true of Britain quite uniquely for perhaps 5,000 years or so: Given our geography, fantastic agricultural conditions, waters, the shifting of the climate (that eventually partially sealed us off from the continent several thousand years ago) we have always had a more than peculiar relationship to others. Indeed, I think it might be true to say that Britannia changed hands more than any other protectorate during the several hundred years of Roman occupation, and rule. After this, we had Saxons, Vikings and Normans. During our Naval conquest, Britain did more than any other nation to advance trade and cultural "exchange". The size and breadth of the Commonwealth is still a testament to that. Then, there is our unique and unequalled role on the side of democracy over the last 200 years. While Russia suffered greatly none did more to uphold teh political idea of freedom than Britain. This I believe to be self-evident from easily accessed historical data. We can even chuck in our own brutal "modern" civil war that was fought once again because of outside interference. So, I do eye with suspicion the latest attempt to conquer Europe. I dont think this statement can be rightly regarded as xenophobic, or nationalistic. I think its a hard fact, and it is been paid for with bitter and devastated lives.

It is only a point of view (albeit a very serious one with serious consequences) that shifts between the dream of continued wealth and freedom, and the hell that conflict brings. I don't say this with great confidence, but I suppose that a more centralised and powerful Europe will be too tempting for our fragile and competitive human nature to hold in balance. It is just a point of view and one that has to be judged alongside the continued idea of individual nations, local decision-makers and a decentralised but national decision-making body. All these things are and will continue to slip away from our doorsteps. One only has to look at the previous way the right to express has been charged down by Brussels and none more graphically in recent times than in Spain. On that note, Britain once again was able to display its unique position when Scotland voted to remain part of the union. Something, unique and disallowed if Europe has its way. Europe is not a domesticated animal. I believe it has a ferocious will and only respects power. We don't need another superpower...do we?

I don't doubt for one moment that the economy will be hit if we leave and some will directly suffer significantly.

I also would like to see continued free movement. However, I cannot support a European superstate. And this is clearly where the powers that be want us to go. This is one point that those radical agitators what to muddy. Manywelcomee immigration, but not the control of it by a few who grow fat and rich and idle. It is not any different than the great and eventually hugely bloated Senate. There will be a Cesar and after that many, many more- I must admit he is somewhat of a hero of mine, however!

The power that Europe (whatever that is) exercisers over millions of -consumers- otherwise disparate and disenfranchised souls is so great that the rhetoric largely goes unchallenged. Indeed, the stranglehold they have over universities and social norms is staggering. It will only take one more move and we will have that president of Europe. But, of course, that would be a very human and egoic mistake to make. Then the game would be up. For now, the world is in fear of Trump when I would suggest they need to be worrying about the shadows of Brussels.

P.S. I apologise for going wildly off topic. I have never voted conservative and doubt I could. I do withold my vote however. So, I dont think that Brexit is entirely a conservative theme. It is just that the other (non-representative would be governers) have stifled and controlled the electorate (haha) in their particular ways. One only need look at ones local labour council over the last 20 plus years to see the fear they terrorise some folks with. I would think that the labour vote and the working class Tory vote clinched the result. Funnily, there are still 17 million eligible voting adults who don't seem to think they are particularly happy with the state of things. I wonder why the opposing 17 million eligible voting people opted to "stay happy"? Perhaps only those who feel they are at the table already voted for a European state!?

-- Edited by ian on Sunday 30th of December 2018 09:00:03 PM