Kempo, I haven't forgotten that we have the most radical Tory government in my life time at the mo, far worse than Thatcher. But the Tory government can be removed at the next general election by us if thats what we want unlike EU commissioners.
And I would agree with you that there is no doubt that there is political and financial manoeuvring behind the scenes to scupper the referendum vote. I would be very surprised indeed if there wasn't. I'll go so far as to predict that within the next two years something will happen to make sure we do not leave the EU.
This is partly the point I'm getting at in my rant, our views and our democracy mean diddle dee do in this globalised chicanery, but people are beginning to see through this smoke and mirrors, debt fuelled economy. They want a change, they want to see an alternative presented, They want options. For the last 40 years we've seen the same old politics and policies, reshaped, remodelled, and re-marketed, either with a blue rosette or red, but nothing changes. We have had economic disaster after disaster as I've tried to point out while in the EU, only made palatable by the syrup of North Sea oil. The Scots were the only people presented with an alternative at the last election and as a consequence the Labour vote was annihilated as an irrelevance.
The EU is presented as this political utopia, where everyone is happy, and the sun shines on the Euro, and everyone sings 'Id like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony' while drinking a cola. That may be the case for our political masters. But I have tried to emphasise that our membership of this ever green Elderado has done little for the ordinary people of this country. Other counties have fared worse with Spain and Portugal suffering worse unemployment than us. Italy is in crisis and Greece was calculated and deliberately taken to the cleaners by the IMF. The Greeks no longer own Greece. I cant think for the life of me why anyone would want to be part of this failing federation with its own police force.
As for the rest well you may be right. I dont know, neither do I know much about high international finance, but I do know that the Government bonds that nobody seems to talk about, have gone through the atmosphere since the vote, indicating that foreign investors are keen to buy into the British economy. That the Deutsche Bank is bellow the level of the 2008 crash and that banks are selling off Euros. Maybe they are manufacturing a plot to lull us into a false sense of financial security and then hit us hard to take their revenge. So I would also agree on your last point...the calm before the storm, but not through normal financial fluctuation, more through punishment.
P.S And lets not forget the 3.7 million children (children's Society figures) living in poverty in 21st century EU member state of Britain. The worst rates in the industrialised world. And of course mustn't forget that a great many of our people use banks....food banks. Britain in the EU 2016, More of the same please.. No thank you, if we have to fall on the sword, lets not be pushed by unelected Brussels vultures .
In the short term at least, the falling pound is going to push more children into poverty and more people into the use of food banks. Maybe things will be better in the longer term - it's impossible to say without knowing the terms of the Brexit - but that has to be several years away.
I think that the exchange between Towdlad and Kempo is very telling. I recognise and understand the frustration and anger that Towdlad expresses. I agree with much of the sentiment. The Leave vote was undoubtedly driven by that anti-establishment feeling (with some xenophobia and a bit of racism thrown in from some quarters). Unfortunately, as Kempo I think points out, the EU wasn't to blame for any of what Towdlad decries and leaving the EU isn't going to make it any better. In fact it will make things worse. If we do leave (as surely we now must) the same establishment won't be the ones to suffer. It will be the lower classes who will suffer from the extended diet of austerity, who can't access reduced public services, and who can't make ends meet. There will be more children living in poverty. We will 'have our country back' but will still be governed by the old school tie network, will still have an unelected second chamber, and will still have an unelected head of state (of German heritage). I understand the protest vote that was Leave, but we have protested to the wrong people and against the wrong things.
Kempo, I haven't forgotten that we have the most radical Tory government in my life time at the mo, far worse than Thatcher. But the Tory government can be removed at the next general election by us if thats what we want unlike EU commissioners.
And I would agree with you that there is no doubt that there is political and financial manoeuvring behind the scenes to scupper the referendum vote. I would be very surprised indeed if there wasn't. I'll go so far as to predict that within the next two years something will happen to make sure we do not leave the EU.
This is partly the point I'm getting at in my rant, our views and our democracy mean diddle dee do in this globalised chicanery, but people are beginning to see through this smoke and mirrors, debt fuelled economy. They want a change, they want to see an alternative presented, They want options. For the last 40 years we've seen the same old politics and policies, reshaped, remodelled, and re-marketed, either with a blue rosette or red, but nothing changes. We have had economic disaster after disaster as I've tried to point out while in the EU, only made palatable by the syrup of North Sea oil. The Scots were the only people presented with an alternative at the last election and as a consequence the Labour vote was annihilated as an irrelevance.
The EU is presented as this political utopia, where everyone is happy, and the sun shines on the Euro, and everyone sings 'Id like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony' while drinking a cola. That may be the case for our political masters. But I have tried to emphasise that our membership of this ever green Elderado has done little for the ordinary people of this country. Other counties have fared worse with Spain and Portugal suffering worse unemployment than us. Italy is in crisis and Greece was calculated and deliberately taken to the cleaners by the IMF. The Greeks no longer own Greece. I cant think for the life of me why anyone would want to be part of this failing federation with its own police force.
As for the rest well you may be right. I dont know, neither do I know much about high international finance, but I do know that the Government bonds that nobody seems to talk about, have gone through the atmosphere since the vote, indicating that foreign investors are keen to buy into the British economy. That the Deutsche Bank is bellow the level of the 2008 crash and that banks are selling off Euros. Maybe they are manufacturing a plot to lull us into a false sense of financial security and then hit us hard to take their revenge. So I would also agree on your last point...the calm before the storm, but not through normal financial fluctuation, more through punishment.
I can't see how leaving the EU will bring about the change in politics that you want and I don't really believe that there is a great deal of appetite for addressing a debt fuelled economy. On the debt point, look at the reaction of many people to the austerity measures introduced to address excessive national borrowing. It hasn't been particularly popular. When it comes to personal debt, many people have grown to see nothing abnormal with a buy now pay for several years lifestyle.
Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece all partied hard on the never never. As someone far cleverer than me said, Greece ran an economy that exported olive oil, imported BMWs and retired at 55 on very generous pensions. To make matters worse, they did it whilst locked into a currency that would not devalue when the ship hit the iceberg, which was always a matter of when rather than if.
For me, the fate of Greece provided the strongest argument for a Leave vote as it revealed a deep flaw at the heart of the EU, which is that it consists of a collection of very different economies in which self-interest influences policy. Everybody in the Eurozone knew that Greece was behaving recklessly, but didn't act because it suited them. The Germans in particular turned a blind eye because it softened the currency and assisted their exporters.
I would add that the demand for government debt is not an expression of faith in the UK economy. It's an expression of a lack of faith in equities. It's about investors battening down the hatches and investing in debt rather than wealth creating.
Smiler. I know the trials and tribulation faced by working people of the country were not necessarily caused by the EU. Radical right wing ideology from our home politics was a huge factor (although I'm sure in another debate it may prove that much was influenced by Brussels).
My point is that many hold the EU as a shining example of the great and the good and that we're all doomed because of the leave vote. But the EU has done nothing to stop the destruction of our manufacturing industry as I listed above. Britain has become a low wage low skilled society; (unlike the 60's when we were at the forefront of technological development, invention and innovation) while the county's wealth has been syphoned off to the top 10%. It stands by and does nothing for the working rights of people on 0 hour contracts or for the migrants who lived next door to me who were forced to live in what became squalid conditions and who were clearly being exploited by greedy landlords, employment agencies and gang masters. I have seen nothing of any real worth come from the EU.
I voted to leave for all the above reasons in all my posts, but my main concern is our loss of sovereignty, independence , freedom to trade with the world and democracy. The EU is undemocratic as many would argue our present voting system is. But at least we can do something about it if we want to, we cant with the EU. I'm afraid of TTIP and all that it brings and see our country becoming a small cog in an unaccountable totalitarian state. Id rather take a chance.
We need to move forward with everyone on board HMS Brittannia, and see this as an opportunity to move forward in the world with new ideas and a new pioneering spirit, akin to what we once had. We cant look into the future ,only speculate, but it cant possibly any worse than we've had it these last 40 years, not more of the same old same old. But we will never know unless we try. Thats why I voted for what I saw as real change.
For me, the fate of Greece provided the strongest argument for a Leave vote as it revealed a deep flaw at the heart of the EU, which is that it consists of a collection of very different economies in which self-interest influences policy. Everybody in the Eurozone knew that Greece was behaving recklessly, but didn't act because it suited them. The Germans in particular turned a blind eye because it softened the currency and assisted their exporters.
I read about this recently, but am writing from memory so may not get it quite right. Everyone knew that Greece was skint it always was a poor country. And everyone knew its economy was incompatible with joining the Euro. So the IMF assisted in cooking the books with the assent of the EU in order for them to join and then made loans available, as they did in Ireland which brought them to the financial brink too.
The rich may have partied but when the brown stuff hit the fan the bank accounts of the ordinary people were sequestrated (the rich mainly got wind and moved their cash abroad) the rest is history. The situation in Greece was not caused by the Greek people. It was caused by Greek politicians with the connivance of the IMF ,Deutsche Bank and the EU. The country has now been asset stripped due to the country's default on payments and enjoys 25% unemployment. The EU did good work that day.
anyway guys too tired to parry with you anymore tonight, must leave it to other like minded warrior to take up the debate. Goodnight Banters
Slightly off piste but towdlad's mention of Deutche bank stimulates a thought.
I was listening to a financial journalist talking about Deutche bank only a couple of days ago and there is a rumour doing the rounds that they are not far away from doing a Lehmans.
Although this is not a result of Brexit,I suppose it could be the final straw and if this happens a run on the banks could be on the cards which to my limited understanding would be pretty disastrous.
The point I suppose is that we already had an economy and financial situation teetering almost unnoticed and Brexit could tip us over the edge.
I agree with towdlad that the banks have a lot to answer for and continue to behave in a way that may cause a second financial crisis but removing ourselves from the EU makes little difference.
Like others I agree with many points towdlad makes re the establishment,the banks the Torys and so on but as said I can see little link with the EU
Morning all, busy putting in a new lavvie while Towdlass is aways visiting my daughter in London, so dont have much time to jaw jaw today.
Anyways, perhaps Kempo's last sentence probably says it for me: "...I see little link with the EU", neither do I, other than it has not stopped the excesses of unfairness and injustice for the ordinary people these last 40 years, and I can see no long term common good either. Which is another reason why I see no point in being in.
With regard to Kempos point about the economy tottering on the edge and Brexit tipping us over. I suspect he may be right, all I can say is perhaps that ought to be the case and force change. How long will these economic crisis go on for, perhaps nows the time to take back control, draw a line in the sand and make a new start, away from the sordid mess we are in and try to build a sound economy not the sticking plaster one we've come accustomed to. And to do that, we need to be free from the shackles and restrains, presently controlling us from within the EU.
Haha Brinny, only a remainer could put a negative spin on good news post Brexit, I guess it's a case of lose we lose and win we lose. Whatever the markets do, the fact is that nobody could have predicted its reaction to Brexit, not leading economists, not the IMF, not the WTO note even Kempo for Christ's sake.
What has proved tangible, however, is Britain's ability to protect itself from economic shocks. Thank goodness that the Euroscpetics won the day on tighter EU integration. Thank goodness that the ERM failed so dramatically and we pulled back from joining the Euro. Otherwise we could be like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal ... trapped in a nightmarish doom loop of poor economic performance without the means nor the power to do anything about it.
For me personally the choice was a simple one. A vote to remain was a vote to endorse the status quo. A vote to remain was a vote to dampen down calls for significant EU reform. A vote to remain was a vote to provide an unequivocal mandate for the drive towards a federal superstate. A vote to remain was a vote to further ensconce the power of our EU leaders; the global banks, big business and the neoliberal elite. A vote to remain was a vote to legitimise the treatment of the citizens of Greece. A vote to remain was a vote to accept that austerity and high unemployment for Southern Europe states was an inevitable consequence of EU fiscal policy. A vote to remain is a vote to accept that Britain is no longer a sovereign nation capable of making its own decisions in the interests of its citizens.
Personally, the direction the EU is going scares the bejesus out of me. My political instincts are for small government and self determination and I'm afraid the EU is now the antithesis of that ideal and something I could never, ever support no matter what the price.
By voting out we have at least engendered the chance that change in the EU might actually happen and that its leaders will perhaps reflect on the result and the course on which it has embarked. Britain in Europe has never been a marriage made in heaven and in my opinion it is better for all concerned that we pull out all together and go our own way and leave the remaining EU states to do what is right for them.
-- Edited by S8Miller on Monday 4th of July 2016 10:57:27 AM
Well I appreciate we have to look at the markets and I wont be surprised in the least if its the markets who dictate (emphasis on the word DICTATE) that we do not leave the EU. It wont matter about democracy or what the people want its always about what the markets, the establishment the media barrons, share prices and the banks want. We're only wanted to pay out taxes, because most of those above mentioned dont. ..........All while we're in the EU.
We've seen it all before; mass unemployment of 20%+ and a mortgage rate of 13% plus the repossessions, hopelessness , despair destruction of our manufacturing industries, with the industrial heartlands of Britain layed waste and of course the war, under the Thatcher regime, and that was while we were in the EU.
Lets not forget the betrayal of multimillionaire socialist Tony Blair who carried on the Thatcherite experiment by pandering to the markets and the Murdoch empire, and his oh so longed for desire to join the Euro, oh and the war. Lets not forget Mr Brown who while chancellor raided our pensions making us have to work longer to enjoy retirement while they looked after their own pensions and are able to retire in their 50's, and then flogged off most of our gold reserves, because the banks were draining the economy. All while we were in the EU.
And let us not forget the banks the bastions of society who gambled and swindled with the country's assets and became bankrupt, to such an extent that the now so called uneducated working class had to bail them out with approx £27,000 per household. ..All while we were in the EU
Lets not forget the wholesale sell off of the countries assets, British Gas, Water Authorities, BT, Royal Mail, British Rail, Electricity generation, British Steel, elderly care homes and watch out NHS....the list goes on, until we the British people have nothing, absolutely nothing except total disenfranchisement. Of course we can still have these things...if we can pay for them while they run cartels and rig the prices...All while we were in the EU.
And now lets not forget Austerity, who can forget austerity, because 'we're all in it together' arn't we ? Well some of us are more in it together than others. The politicians, (in Westminster and Brussels) banks and financiers dont seem to be suffering austerity although they caused it through their reckless cavalier attitude, and its still going on. Using the tax payers bail out dosh to continue to fund huge lottery win bonuses instead of lending to industry and small business to kick start the economy......... All while we're in the EU.
So you see it wont make much difference to ordinary folk, we're already in the brown stuff all the above have seen to that. The country has been stripped bare. so it really wont matter what happens, only this time we'll be out of the EU (well not really, its only pretend, not until we invoke clause 50), but we will be in charge. We will be able to make our own choices, even if we have to go down fighting for a return to democratic accountability.
impossible to ignore these salient points because they are true in each regard. Firstly, they describe exactly what has taken place and secondly they link to real impact.
The heart of the EU debate to me is about globalisation. You either think this is a good thing or you think it might be an awful thing. If you think its a good thing then you will excuse the awful abuse of the most vulnerable and you wont mind increasingly moving away from the nation state model of democracy to global leadership that will "put down" at any cost any expression of individuality that threatens the building of their global utopia. This utopia model is so entrenched in our collective frightful psyches and portrayed in art, writing and media from the beginnings of civilisation that one would have to be very insensitive as a human animal to miss it. We all both crave and detest unification as it carries with it the destruction of the self but the promise of a Utopian peace-an end to suffering. I believe there are parasites that can impact upon other creatures nervous system and literally take them over. You can have this model or you can have a Jungle model. I know which one (however imperfect) I prefer.
The battle has been joined from the beginning.
There are those who identify as globalists and will ignore every paradox and abuse and excess to promote their idea as civilised, educated, in keeping with universal law and evolutionary and cognitively supreme.; and there are those who broadly identify as nation state democrats and who believe that control and responsibility should be gradually factored in to any world model of integration but that in the end ****geneity and universalism are much less needed and indeed will prove to be the undoing of freedom if it is not done by respecting already and historic "natural" expressions of the current evolved cultural and broadly physical human state.
-- Edited by ian on Monday 4th of July 2016 01:20:45 PM
How do S8, I seemed to be batting a lonely wicket last night and in my weary old age struggled to keep awake, anyway you've nailed it for me. It took me a handful of long winded posts to debate the case and you've put it in a nut shell so succinctly, everything I wanted to say.I take my hat off to you.
How do S8, I seemed to be batting a lonely wicket last night and in my weary old age struggled to keep awake, anyway you've nailed it for me. It took me a handful of long winded posts to debate the case and you've put it in a nut shell so succinctly, everything I wanted to say.I take my hat off to you.
Merkel is drunk on the "multicultural/diversity" which is really "cultural Marxism"
Is she to blame/thank for Brexit?
whatever the response to this, is she acting alone in terms of the mass open border globalisation and pluralism...I think not. Its not that im a CONSPIRACY supporter in terms of a very secret and joined up movementof men dressed in black, but, the historical record is clearly supportive of the promotion of religious and ethnic public opinion brainwashing and interestingly enough most of it is via the CIA and British intelligence services...
The UN and the EU sponsor thousands upon thousands of research hours on globalisation and the "need" to transform humanity by mass and rapid movement of populations from one area of socioeconomic need to another of greater resource. Not just economic however, They also simply promote the dilution of all religious, ethical, moral and otherwise cultural norms and have extended migration policy to include "anyone who wants to move in the world from one area to another should be free to do so without borders or checks based on any criteria whatsoever". This is in contrast to the 3 pillars of migration that have been applied by nation states for decades that they can; according to their own practical needs and not withstanding compassionate policy of accepting real refugees based on a real and immediate threat to life make their own unilateral decisions without penalty.
The age of pluralism is about the emergence of multiculturalism giving rise to new political, social and religious "communities" provided by the massive movement of populations.
It is a matter of historic and continued public record both in the states and Europe since at lease the 1940s, but has of course been a deeply held belief by the political elite since the middle ages. Now however, it is at last possible and unbeknown to the general populations of the western nations the groundwork and framework has been expanding quickly. The point is that this hasnt just chanced upon us, or evolved, but this has been planned for, for decades. It is truly almost too late to reverse as the political and financial and technological scaffold is here.
The end of this political and philosophical movement is this: There will be nothing but enforced "peace" .
I suggest that this is neither peaceful, natural or life enhancing. It will end in complete civil war or ongoing Gorilla resistance. I think we are already seeing the ability to be able to speak about enforcing globalisation in all its facets without any fear. It may not be long before military enforcement (after all we already have economic and legal enforcement -political correctness-where perhaps thousands have lost jobs and served criminal time for breaking the pluralistic rules) , takes place against a nation state who should dare to say no....crazy? well, we have already see this countless times across the globe as the USA and Britain have invaded and planted infrastructure to benefit the ongoing political class and this globalisation which is its favoured son. We could cite all the numerous and spurious invasions that actually result in no visible real change , but then later the same powers then provide another cover story to remove the political puppets they put there in the first place. Is any of this credible? of course not. Or, we could simply cite Greece, Holland or France whose people have all been ignored at the polling station until the EU gets its way...
The United nations other children proved rebellious and far to costly to them. They tried global domination by military power and propaganda before and to some extent it worked but when Russia and China got the Bomb they had to think more strategically and long term and this is exactly where we are now.
Well, some may genuinely want this "great big coffee cup" of faith, culture, materialism but those that dont wont have a choice and will suffer greatly for it and maybe,like all totalitarian regimes, even be criminalised or worse...
The philosophy demonises anyone with a different view.
Bigot
Racist
Right wing-nut
Hate crime
uneducated
old
not useful
not conducive to civilisation
insane
Hate speech
Increasingly people demand
respect
my space
my rights
my feelings
my view
and these people simply are not available to what anyone one with common sense might term rational and normal limits of freedoms.
The hate only goes one way of course. They will justify anything to get people to submit. As one respected and much lauded peaceful Utopian academic said " We need so much more than just tolerance of others to fulfil our destiny "
Very eloquent Ian but I see it very differently. As a species we are dealing with the challenges that our advancement creates. The world has become a much smaller place. A century ago the world couldn't have been threatened by a nut case in North Korea but technological advances mean that now he poses a serious threat. A century ago the idea that masses of people would be navigating the globe on a daily basis was science fiction but now it is a reality. The internet means that in fact the need to travel the world is diminishing. Effecting cross global communication is now like shelling peas. This means that national boundaries have become increasingly artificial and less relevant. With those advancements have come enormous benefits and changes for the better (we could have a theoretical debate about whether materially better off equals happier or not) but also new challenges. Whether we as a species have dealt and are dealing with those challenges effectively is an interesting question, but I can not subscribe to the theory that this has all been mapped out for us by politically correct globalists in league with the thought police. On one view surely people have never been more free to and empowered in their ability to say what they think. We are simply witnessing the latest chapter in the evolution of our species. As the world gets smaller we will inevitably see more and more integration and we will become more ****genous. Globalisation is a natural not a man made phenomenon. Building walls and putting up barriers will not and can not prevent that happening over time. I would argue that the UN, EU, and other similar organisations are really attempts to manage and control the pace of that evolution, but it is inexorable. It will happen.
As you suggest the trend towards globalisation is something that the two points agree on As to whether it is a natural process or a philosophy built on observations of natural law , or a philosophy promoted for self aggrandisement I think is impossible to be certain.
In my current world view I would suggest that money and power have always coexisted. In every boardroom in the world, strategies are formed and nah Sayers are jettisoned. It seems obvious this happens no matter how big or powerful the institution.
World history is testament to opposing forces not random acts of evolution. Strategy is carried via the culture of the organisation and all organisations publish there strategies. The globalist agenda is in the public domain. The United nations and United states federal governments mainly controlled by the CIA pretty much control the agenda and its implementation.
There are countless minutes of meetings and strategic do***ents available that unless I am being very paranoid make clear their pluralistic global position and wish to create a world built on mass movement and no borders on any kind. The worry is how controlling this ends up being...peace will be bought by some at any price.
The only question seems to be whether one thinks this is life enhancing in terms of peace, prosperity and happiness.
I have grave doubts but that might be simply my unevolved personal psyche .
-- Edited by ian on Tuesday 5th of July 2016 09:20:05 AM
