Unfortunately, Kempo is typical of the majority of Remainers who are engaging in a campaign to discredit the leave voters (we're racist, we're stupid, we didn't understand fully, we were duped yada yada yada) is probably the most disgusting, patronising and damn right anti-democratic teddy throwing, foot stamping, tantrum I have ever witnessed in my life.
One of the reasons for voting the way I did was certainly not for any personal gain, (I was in full knowledge that my investments would take a hit just like everyone else's and that we would go through a prolonged period of uncertainty) I voted the way I did because I realised (as many have) that we are simply kicking the can further down the road. At some point somebody WILL have to pay for the sovereign debt crisis in Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. At some point our wealth will have to be normalised with those of the rest of the EU member states for any political and fiscal union to work and by the way that will include some very poor states that will accede in the near future. But it won’t be the wealthy that will suffer, it will be down to our kids who, through higher taxes and reduced services, will have to sort it. And it is potentially a much bigger mess than the 2 years or so of pain that we will go through to extricate ourselves from the EU.
Do you imagine that the EU leaders in their wisdom have any sort of plan or roadmap for enlargement? I have serious doubts. These are the same leaders that having cobbled together disparate nation states by introducing a one size fits all fiscal policy and unfettered free movement of people, without ever considering any of the negative consequences, then lit a fire under Europe. They punished the people of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy and left them to crippling austerity and high levels of youth unemployment while spending huge amounts to refinance the big banks that caused the worst financial crisis in history. So much for unity and solidarity, big trouble is brewing and we are better off out.
So can a union of sovereign states under a centralised government really succeeded long term? I think the odds are short, just look at the former Soviet Union. It really does surprise me that the former Eastern bloc countries, having spent decades throwing off the shackles of communism are here yet again raising their hands for a system that looks remarkably similar, only now it is the big banks and the neoliberals that are in charge and even more curious is the support of the left for this unholy alliance. The neoliberals in the EU have been shown to have zero sympathy or any sort of social conscience if it goes against their free market doctrine, just ask Greece. Be afraid people, be very afraid.
If we go back cap in hand to the EU now, not only will be a laughing stock but our standing as a nation will be seriously and irrevocably damaged. We all need to accept the result, stop bickering and make this work otherwise the doom mongering will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
I am sure that the leave voters had deep thinkers like S8 and voted as they genuinely thought we would benefit but he is in the minority.
The demographics show that most out voters could be classed as working class and there was an out vote cluster in the old age group.
Just take a look at the political chaos...both major parties in disarray ....How can that be acceptable it's a disaster.
Of course we have not seen the economic effects immediately but we will..and they will soon be positive.
I cannot call the FTSE but I suspect we are seeing a dead cat bounce and it will crash down again but lets see.
People voted due to lies being told ie money to NHS..a lie and expected major immigration restriction..a lie.
We will not get a decent trade agreement with the EU and we will have to keep free people movement to get any deal at all.
Within the so called working classes there is an underlying racism simmering away...you only have to listen to why they voted to understand that.
The old people want it like it used to be..whatever that means...old outdated Anglocentric thoughts with the simmering racism present again.
I am not surprised that S8 is in denial..who would want to be associated with this voting group?
I never thought I had an understanding of the subject matter so I'm sure the average voter didn't understand it..far too complicated and important to hold the vote in the first place.
What about the young people?..Let down yet again with old people showing disdain with such a pathetic vote restricting opportunities for the young.
Looks like we will end up with the buffoon Boris!...well done!
Its not a good thing to isolate ourselves and now we have become friendless.
A government should be brave enough to decline to follow the vote as implementing it would have disastrous consequences.
Listen to what the EU leaders say..Of course they are all wrong and we are correct..I don't think so!
Stop your denial S8 and look around you and see the truth.
We should be Europeans and embrace immigrants as our own but no lets get the foreigners out and then start on the 'darkies'
Absolutely pathetic and a very worrying outcome.
-- Edited by Kempo on Wednesday 29th of June 2016 08:17:09 PM
Nobody, and I mean nobody, knows how this will end.
If, after 2 years of triggering article 50 the country is in a worse place then I will agree that you was right all along Kempo.
Problem is, I'm a bit like John Lewis: 'never knowingly wrong'. The country will be fine, the political parties will be fine, the economy will be fine, unemployment will be fine and there won't be free movement of people to the same extent as now.
There is no denial here Kempo, if there was a vote tomorrow I would vote the same way again. Your arrogance is breathtaking but unfortunately, typical of the remain camp. This is democracy, it is how it works. Do you seriously think the leave side had a monopoly on people that didn't understand the issues? How many people do you consider voted remain against their judgement based on the lies and misinformation of project fear?
Its all baloney. We wont be allowed to leave the EU, if the big banks decide otherwise and theres also suggestion that the Eu comes under the control of Washington. Thats why the EU countries are controlled like US states and finance flows through the system propping us weaker states/countries. Its all about control. They cant afford to have an independent loose cannon between the two.
Sometimes stating the truth can be seen as arrogance S8 but you are wrong and you have made a mistake with your vote.
You are not in denial?....I have never in my lifetime seen such political chaos involving both main political parties..The PM resigning,the governing party in chaos and I have lost count of the number of resignations in the Labour party.
A recession is just about certain according to people more expert than myself.
Banks have been hit very hard and are not recovering like the rest of the market and although some will rejoice,everyone will suffer.
Brexit is built on lies which you don't comment on, a 350 million lie...where is that money now?
A lie about free movement which will not occur as voters imagine
The vote has empowered racists to increase their abuse of immigrants and this was so predictable in this country.
It's all an absolute disaster brought on by this vote but all you can comment on is my arrogance.
I see flags hanging out of bedroom windows..old people and some younger wanting to put the 'Great' back in GB...want the country back to how it used to be without foreigners and people who think we are so important that the EU will do a good deal when they are clearly saying they will not....Now all that is arrogance.
You seem to not notice any of the above.
-- Edited by Kempo on Wednesday 29th of June 2016 10:40:57 PM
Sometimes stating the truth can be seen as arrogance S8 but you are wrong and you have made a mistake with your vote.
Correction, you are a stating your opinion and whether I made a mistake or not, time will tell. But on balance I believe that it is in the bests interest of the UK to leave the EU
You are not in denial?....I have never in my lifetime seen such political chaos involving both main political parties..The PM resigning,the governing party in chaos and I have lost count of the number of resignations in the Labour party.
Really? The PLP have been itching to oust Corbyn from day one and not because of the referendum, it was only a matter of time and this is the perfect excuse for the Blarites to take back control. Personally, I hope they fail massively. A vote to Remain may have given him a little more time but he was a lame duck leader. As for the Tories, I think Cameron's days were numbered either way also. Anybody that didn't see any kind of political upheaval is a fool.
A recession is just about certain according to people more expert than myself.
Maybe, maybe not. Who knows. Whatever happens the UK will bounce back stronger.
Banks have been hit very hard and are not recovering like the rest of the market and although some will rejoice,everyone will suffer.
A reaction by a jittery market who have no clear sight of how this will impact the banks. It will be up to politicians and the Governor of the BoE to earn their money for a change and set out that vision and roadmap.
Brexit is built on lies which you don't comment on, a 350 million lie...where is that money now?
And so was the Remain campaign. It was a disappointing feature of this referendum, but smart people read behind the soundbites and scaremongering and drew there own conclusions. There will have been as many people swayed to vote based on Leave stretching the truth as there were for Remain's fantastical claims of Armageddon.
A lie about free movement which will not occur as voters imagine
Free movement of labour or people? there is a difference.
The vote has empowered racists to increase their abuse of immigrants and this was so predictable in this country.
A sad indictment that this country cannot have a grown up discussion about immigration without racist being thrown around at normal, decent people with genuine concerns.
It's all an absolute disaster brought on by this vote but all you can comment on is my arrogance.
Again, we shall see. Early days.
I see flags hanging out of bedroom windows..old people and some younger wanting to put the 'Great' back in GB...want the country back to how it used to be without foreigners and people who think we are so important that the EU will do a good deal when they are clearly saying they will not....Now all that is arrogance.
I saw that well before the referendum was even on the agenda. Remember Gordon Brown's 'bigoted woman', comment. Remember Emily Thornberry's tweet gaffe during the last election? The fact is the political class and in particular Labour have created this by decades of ignoring the concerns of ordinary working class people. Voters are such a nuisance aren't they?
You seem to not notice any of the above.
-- Edited by Kempo on Wednesday 29th of June 2016 10:40:57 PM
I'm dismayed at the vitriol, anger, spite, venom and hatred directed at those who voted leave and that somehow leave voters are all racist and that this single issue swung the vote. Its now being spouted that the leave vote was won by stupid working class voters, who need re-educating; an arrogance that is being fuelled by the media en mass with dumplings being interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday morning saying 'I voted leave but I wish I hadn't' , which was then presented as evidence enough that the leave vote was flawed.
We dont have mania like this after a general election when, in every instance, the party forming the government is in power from a minority vote of around 40 odd %, even a simpleton like me can work out that the majority voted for someone else. And yet we gracefully accept the result and even reject a voting system, in a referendum, to introduce a fairer and more representative and democratic Parliament. Why do we accept minority rule in a General election and yet refuse to accept a vote where the majority voted by 52% to 48% to leave.
In my opinion the answer is quite simple. The British people are as a rule conservative with a small 'c'. They are placid and prefer the devil you know rather than have alternatives. They are easily persuaded, believing in a 'Great' Britain, the rule of Brittania and 3 lions on a shirt. Even though Britain has not been a World power since the First World War, we still believe we are. As a result we are easily moulded, persuaded, easily mollified by the ruling classes with the media being used as a tool to discredit and destroy any voice of dissent or conversely present and uphold others as shining examples of virtuous Albion. In short we are gullible and do as we're told.
UNTIL NOW. It is true to say that there has not been such a seismic event since perhaps the Peasants Revolt, the Civil War, or the 1945 General Election. It has taken everyone by surprise. If for one moment the Establishment thought that a leave vote was on the cards, we would most certainly not have had a referendum. Those voting leave were politicians from every political persuasion, business people, academics, upper class, middle class and yes working class. Yet the old saying that if you tell a lie often enough it will become the truth and I expect that in years to come the history book will tell us that this referendum was won by an uneducated, racist and bigoted working class.
I voted to leave as I did in1975, when incidentally there was far less foreigners here then there are now, and I voted leave because I didnt as now, want to be ruled by a federal government where laws and regulations are made by unelected commissioners and merely rubber stamped by MEPs who seem to be there merely to offer a shameful suggestion of democracy. I want the right to have a say in our future, which yes, includes sensible immigration, because I am concerned about the population that is growing at a rate of 500,000 a year and has grown 4.7million over the last 10 years. That dose not mean I am a racist, I am the son of a Polish immigrant. Do I believe by leaving the EU it will stop immigration, no I dont, but it is an issue, just like many other others needs to addressed.
In the end I dont believe we will leave the EU. Within the next two years something will happen and we will stay, in some form or other. A week is a long time in politics as they say, and the two years, which they say is needed, will throw up some scheme to keep us in. The Establishment here and abroad just wont allow it. There will be punitive punishment from the world banks and a run on the £ . The media will be used to drip feed us with bad news items about it, that will eventually alter the Great British public view and we will stay. The 52% and democracy will have nothing to do with it.
Where I think Kempo is probably correct is that whilst there were some good and reasonable arguments on the Leave side, there was also undoubtedly an underlying current of racism and xenophobia that proved decisive. That is not to say that all Leave voters are racist - of course they aren't - but a significant minority were to some extent.
Someone very closely related to me voted Leave because he said there are too many Poles in the town where we live. My Mrs told him that in the school where she works (in the same town) there are four Polish families - two of the families have doctors working at the local hospital, one family has a bio-chemist at a local engineering site and the fourth family runs a car body shop. He didn't want to know. That didn't suit his narrative. I asked him who he thinks pays his pension and he said he paid it himself over the years he paid his NIC. No understanding at all of the fact that when he paid in he was funding the pensioners of that time, and he needs people to be paying in now so he and the ever increasing number of retirees (who ironically tended to vote Leave) can draw out. His vote was 100% influenced by dangerous, misguided, ill informed clap trap fed to him that played on his innate sense of vulnerability and fears.
I suspect there were millions like him.
In a nutshell, I can live with the leave vote per se but the reasons behind us delivering that result and the pattern shown in the results are very, very depressing. The fall out from it will take years to settle. The great irony is that the sections of society who voted Leave are from the same groups who the decision will hit hardest. The fine fellows in the City and the establishment who were all supposed to get a bloody nose will all do quite nicely out of it.
Smiler, the bit about migrants paying for our pensions is also something of a misnomer, if thats the correct term to use. Yes it is a valid point that those in work now are to some degree paying for todays pensioners. However who will pay for the pensions when todays migrant contributors get to pensionable age. The argument suggests more immigration and with the passing of each generation yet more and more and so on. I cant Imagine what this country will be like in 50 or 60 years time if the migrant=pensions thesis holds sway. It wont trouble me I probably wont be here 20 yrs or so from now.
I dont dispute the fact that for many leave voters the main issue was immigration, but here again if our smarty pant politicians paid more attention to the real and genuine public fears at street level instead of playing footsie with wealthy lobbyist, they could and should have addressed the situation years ago. Non so blind as those who will not see and it is they and they alone fiddling (expense accounts) in complacency while the country burned with resentment, unnoticed. It has now blown up in their faces. In my opinion Smiler there is no one to blame except the politicians of every persuasion, they are the ones who are supposed to be in charge of the country not the racist element that undoubtedly exist within our society.
But the current hysterical clamour and hate against the leave voters is well over egged, disingenuous and crass. The fact remains that at the current rate of increase, by the time my number is up the country will be populated by approx 76million souls and this is only the ones we know about, there must be many thousands more here illegally. By any estimation this kind of growth cannot possibly be sustainable on an island as small as ours. A potential time bomb and a serious issue that needs to be addressed sensibly without the 'racist' rhetoric that stifles reasoned debate at a stroke.
More confusion and upheaval today with Boris to everyone's amazement not standing for PM.
I have no idea what's going on at the moment I must admit.
All this has been brought about by the vote in my view and I disagree that it would all have happened anyway.
To be clear, I am not suggesting that anyone contributing to this thread has led me to behave they are racist but I stick to my view that there was underlying racism in the out vote.
Its all opinion and everything is uncertain at the moment...only time will tell on who is correct re the outcomes of all this turmoil.
My own view is that the risks were too high and we are moving into the unknown.
I accept that it looks like the referendum decision will be implemented so we will have to make the best of it.
I certainly don't want to fall out with anyone here over this and we will see what happens.
For me personally its unlikely that the result will make much difference but for others I fear it will.
I feel very strongly that this vote is very bad for the country and I despair that 48 per cent of the country disagree yet we go ahead on such an important issue.
I regret that some of my views are perceived as arrogance but my vote was made to try and help the young of our country and the ordinary hard working citizen.
Whatever the FTSE is doing over the last couple of days we will see the economy slowing and drifting back into recession...That cannot be a good thing and its a direct result of this vote.
Interest rates will likely be cut further and this will hit everyone who has savings and they may as well put their money under the mattress.
We may even get more QE as desperation sets in but none of it will work and with the recession will be job losses and mortgage defaults.
It sounds grim and I hope that I am wrong.
Its a interesting debate on here with interesting discussion from both sides and I am sure this will continue as more of this unravels.
I went into Leicester today with Mrs K to do some shopping and I was struck by how multicultural it was.
We had a couple of coffees and both places appeared to have more East Europeans than English working and I have noticed this when I stay in hotels.
Everyone seemed comfortable within their multicultural environment and I felt content and happy and thought that this is exactly how I want it to remain.
Who will do these jobs I wonder if things change and why are the English unemployed not grabbing these jobs ahead of immigrants?
I wonder if I will now be served my coffee by some fat useless,lazy individual who struggles to speak her native language...we will see.
The remain campaign keep using the word intolerant.
They are intolerant of the result.
Intolerant of democracy.
Intolerant of not getting their usual own way.
I abhor racism in any way and the recent abuse aimed at migrants is a disgrace. This has been reported en mass. The recent remain protest had a banner which said 'old white people should die'. Nice, that's me. The man who defended you, paid your dole money in my taxes, paid for your education and liberated you from the clutches of a dictatorial mafia like cartel. I said it before and I will say it again. The leave campaign would have accepted the result. The youth who claim we have ruined their lives could have and should have voted. They didn't. Their own idle apathy leaves them accountable for their own destiny.
