I am a lover not a fighter so I shan't be naming names, but what is it about many professional boxers that makes them think they are world class philosophers? I respect them as fighters, but as a rule the ones who try to talk about life, the universe and everything just make themselves look daft. I know they ham it up to sell tickets but a lot of them take it much further than that. No other sport has so many participants who like to talk so much rubbish. The ones who stick to the fighting are the ones I would fear the most eg Tyson in his early days.
Don't know many boxers and can't remember many philosophising. Ali should have done time but was saved by a quite perverse hoop jump by the Supreme Court. If you live in a country and enjoy the benefits you should be prepared to fight if legally called upon.
Boxing has a long tradition of producing philosophers Kid. From Cleanthes of Assos through to Chris Eubank. Boxing is in some senses the purest of sports and perhaps on reflection it reflects the basics of life, hence the musings of the protagonists. Or perhaps that is rubbish as well. One thing I am sure of is that you are right about Ali. Boxer and philosopher - he was overrated at both (controversial perhaps) and he was lucky to escape a spell in the clink.
I'll let it go because I'm so confident in his defence. Not that I can prove anything but I can respect what he said in principle and in fact.
Why should he fight a war that everyone knew was wrong and indeed turned out to be wrong by accounts. So, I think.he was right about that. That makes him a good philosopher.
He was also factually correct when he said that the USA was not standing up for the black man .
He was also correct when he said that the Vietnamese were more connected to him than white America. When he said that he couldn't kill men women and babies not only because they were humans but because they did not wish him harm or disrespect him he was right. Under those conditions he could rightly claim to be logically correct
-- Edited by ian on Friday 6th of November 2015 12:32:52 AM
I thought it might be controversial! Yes, I do think he was overrated. I am not saying he wasn't a very, very good boxer but he wasn't the greatest. That is a title he gave himself in typical self congratulatory fashion. He was probably one of the best in a golden age for the sport when big fights first became big events on the world stage. For me he wasn't even the best heavyweight boxer, never mind the best boxer at any weight, and less still the greatest sportsman of his era which is something he is held out as. There have been many greater. He generated his own hype and to some extent people bought it. He lost four fights officially but probably lost others unofficially. He (and/or his team) famously robbed our own Henry Cooper of victory for one by ripping a glove and buying him recovery time after a knock down (cheating). I am not saying he wasn't a charismatic speaker, but some of what he said and did was (contrary to his image as an eloquent campaigner for the African American) plain offensive, like accusing the great Joe Frazier of being an Uncle Tom and punching a gorilla mask and saying it was what Frazier would look like on fight night. Really? I prefer my heroes to be people with class and integrity who earn respect because of what they do, not what they themselves say they are. And whatever you think of the merit of his conscientious objection, he was lucky to escape jail. He was found guilty and was reprieved at a final appeal in a Supreme Court ruling that most people think was more the product of politics than law. Just points of view.
 I'm with Smiler on this one. To the extent that many people regard him as the greatest sportsman ever and certainly the greatest boxer ever then yes he is overrated. Ironic that he "hated the white man" and yet his reputation is partly based on the verdict of white liberal commenators impressed with his verbosity and demeanour as much as his boxing ability. And he definitely cheated Cooper and I think Liston may have taken a dive!
I don't know about Liston taking a dive Kid, but against Cooper not only was there the ripped glove but Angelo Dundee used the extra time bought to administer smelling salts which was out and out cheating.
Don't get me wrong - really good fighter. But not the greatest by a long chalk.
But the gap between rounds four and five - the moment of the torn glove incident - was, precisely, one minute and six seconds. In other words, only six seconds more than all the other intervals. But as it was, a myth was born that Dundee had bought Ali minutes of extra time to recover. "It's staggering how many people made mistakes writing about this. It's just rubbish,"
Not only was the glove never changed, neither was it even torn.
No 1 down
-- Edited by ian on Friday 6th of November 2015 04:47:06 PM
The torn glove is hotly disputed Ian. The six second theory is based on old footage that a lot of people say is edited. Cooper swore it was over three minutes between rounds and a lot of people agree with him. The glove may not have been replaced but there seems to be no dispute that Dundee at least claimed it was damaged. What is not in doubt at all is that smelling salts were administered - that is clearly seen on footage and Dundee never disputed it - which was a flagrant bit of cheating.
-- Edited by smiler on Friday 6th of November 2015 05:40:11 PM
The footage I've seen and all the eye witness accounts as well as radio commentary say it was just 6 seconds over the one minute.
That seems as good as a fact as I can imagine.
The glove was not changed.
There are multiple Internet sources that attest to this. I'm watching a law drama at the moment t so must insist you withdraw you accusation on grounds of no reliable evidence.
Well I watched it live and we were screaming at the TV and it was definitely several minutes. I think. Unless this is a case of altered memory syndrome?
RK - my grandad told me it was four minutes but he is no longer with us so he won't be giving evidence to this kangaroo court. He was also a keen supporter of the little aired theory that JFK shot his own body double and disappeared into a quiet existence in Cuba.
Ian - you don't want the adjournment. It will only give me time to get my case together. I have found witnesses to the fact that Dundee literally carried Ali to his stool - yet more cheating! And thanks, I will be having another stab at the prediction league. The evidence from that is that I should enjoy the fun of your league (and thanks for organising it) but not support my predictions with hard cash.
Cooper always maintained it was over 3 minutes. Actually, this is the first time I have found this to be controversial. Everybody at the time was up in arms about it.
