No point talking about relative budgets any longer. Proceeds to talk about relative budgets for the duration of the interview.
4 can leave. Another two are sought on loan. Again.
Criticism is disrespectful. Note it's criticism of both him and TS. Note also it's a minority. Those who know their football, e.g. Brighton's manager, think we're in a false position.
It's all calculated stuff. The element of the fan base that will accept no criticism of the manager are bolstered - they're knowledgeable, they're in the minority, they see the bigger picture. They're (and this is coming if things don't pick up) the "true fans".
Those who are worried, who don't see the team as being nearly there but not quite, they're having a go at TS if they say anything. They're a minority. They're not true fans.
It's the psychology of a cult. Complete obedience to the line that everything is terrific or you're not part of it. There's no scope to think maybe there are things we can do better, or do differently, that the performances (at home at least) have shown no signs of our being good enough to get off the bottom, let alone out of the relegation places. There's no scope to desperately want us to win, but still look at and see and point and want to discuss why we might not have.
If he ever goes, it's interviews like that that make me fear it'll rip the club apart. A conspiracy of a minority will force him out. It'll never be anything he did (did he mention he's got a tiny budget to work with?). It'll be like Ronnie all over again. I saw fans scrapping once because they disagreed about his sacking.
He's a smart, eloquent, sharp-witted guy. He's a brilliant communicator and a very good manipulator of narrative. Rob Staton sounds, in his voice and his questioning ("how unfair is this unfair criticism of the great job you're doing, Steve?") like he's terrified of the bloke.
How we need to win tomorrow. I think we'll get it. His pride his hurt. He'll be unspeakable if they don't perform. They'll play like electric prods are on them. It'll be tremendous.
Tomorrow is certainly one of the more winnable games - you might say one of the few winnable games on paper. I just think we'll blow it; I've gone for a draw but could see a narrow defeat.
David's right about the "cult" aspect. Evans' loyalists have already written the script for relegation; the team were betrayed by backstabbers.
More loans then? It worked to a certain extent last season, at least near the end, with Martinez and Hunt in particular. It might work again but is that anyway to run the football club. Surely we will be down the route of signing another full squad next season, if it's the loan players who keep us up?
If SE says we need yet more loans, surely that's an admission that the players he signed aren't good enough?
There are two very clear camps of Millers fans, the ones who will not hear or accept any criticism of Steve Evans and there are those who simply want afresh approach and a new man at the helm. I suppose that there's also a third camp, might be the fence sitters, the ones who really can't decide or possibly try to placate the other two camps and probably succeed in placating nobody!
Any criticism, however constructive of SE, is greeted with howls of derision, look at Twitter to back that up.
Tomorrow is a vital game and one we must win. Defeat, and with arguably even more difficult games to come, and it might well be a very long time before that first three points finally arrives.
More loans then? It worked to a certain extent last season, at least near the end, with Martinez and Hunt in particular. It might work again but is that anyway to run the football club. Surely we will be down the route of signing another full squad next season, if it's the loan players who keep us up?
If SE says we need yet more loans, surely that's an admission that the players he signed aren't good enough?
There are two very clear camps of Millers fans, the ones who will not hear or accept any criticism of Steve Evans and there are those who simply want afresh approach and a new man at the helm. I suppose that there's also a third camp, might be the fence sitters, the ones who really can't decide or possibly try to placate the other two camps and probably succeed in placating nobody!
Any criticism, however constructive of SE, is greeted with howls of derision, look at Twitter to back that up.
Tomorrow is a vital game and one we must win. Defeat, and with arguably even more difficult games to come, and it might well be a very long time before that first three points finally arrives.
This is a very good post. I want a fresh approach but NOT necessarily a new manager: experience suggests it's difficult to get the right man in. But it might be necessary. The point about the lack of stability and over-reliance on loan players goes to the very heart of my criticisms of the current regime. It might work for a season or two but it can't provide longer term success.
Some very astute posting on this thread. SE talks about himself in the third person, which is always a worry. DavidR you are spot on. He aligns himself with TS and the club to create the impression that if you criticise SE you are criticising both TS and RUFC as well, which is obviously flawed logic. It hadn't crossed my mind that this might be a deliberate ploy, but if it is then it is a very clever one. It frustrates the hell out of me that he is allowed to shape the interview how he wishes. There are no probing questions. It really is lazy journalism. Perhaps they are afraid what might happen if they push it too much. But what about a direct question like 'why do you still need a couple of loan players when you have already got 14 new players in?'. A journo's job is to be challenging. I don't think that there is the groundswell of support for him that he seems to think there is. There was a significant minority who were opposed to him being appointed in the first place and would have happily seen him walk even in the best of times. On the other side of the coin, there will always be those who are blinded by the rhetoric and are quick to point at past results. I do sense however that an increasing number of those in the middle who are open minded are starting to have real doubts about what they are seeing and hearing. I want us to win every game, and I have never chanted for any manager to go or booed any performance and I won't start tomorrow, but if we do lose tomorrow and if we are as abject as we have been at home so far, it is coming. If we lose playing decent football and giving 100% he might get away with it a while longer.
-- Edited by smiler on Friday 18th of September 2015 02:48:26 PM
Some very astute posting on this thread. SE talks about himself in the third person, which is always a worry. DavidR you are spot on. He aligns himself with TS and the club to create the impression that if you criticise SE you are criticising both TS and RUFC as well, which is obviously flawed logic. It hadn't crossed my mind that this might be a deliberate ploy, but if it is then it is a very clever one. It frustrates the hell out of me that he is allowed to shape the interview how he wishes. There are no probing questions. It really is lazy journalism. Perhaps they are afraid what might happen if they push it too much. But what about a direct question like 'why do you still need a couple of loan players when you have already got 14 new players in?'. A journo's job is to be challenging. I don't think that there is the groundswell of support for him that he seems to think there is. There was a significant minority who were opposed to him being appointed in the first place and would have happily seen him walk even in the best of times. On the other side of the coin, there will always be those who are blinded by the rhetoric and are quick to point at past results. I do sense however that an increasing number of those in the middle who are open minded are starting to have real doubts about what they are seeing and hearing. I want us to win every game, and I have never chanted for any manager to go or booed any performance and I won't start tomorrow, but if we do lose tomorrow and if we are as abject as we have been at home so far, it is coming. If we lose playing decent football and giving 100% he might get away with it a while longer.
-- Edited by smiler on Friday 18th of September 2015 02:48:26 PM
I used to chuckle in the early days after his appointment when poster after poster on MM would recount how they'd had a pint with Evans in some pub or other and what a great guy he was. There was even one bloke whose baby Evans kissed and got photographed with.
No point talking about relative budgets any longer. Proceeds to talk about relative budgets for the duration of the interview.
4 can leave. Another two are sought on loan. Again.
Criticism is disrespectful. Note it's criticism of both him and TS. Note also it's a minority. Those who know their football, e.g. Brighton's manager, think we're in a false position.
It's all calculated stuff. The element of the fan base that will accept no criticism of the manager are bolstered - they're knowledgeable, they're in the minority, they see the bigger picture. They're (and this is coming if things don't pick up) the "true fans".
Those who are worried, who don't see the team as being nearly there but not quite, they're having a go at TS if they say anything. They're a minority. They're not true fans.
It's the psychology of a cult. Complete obedience to the line that everything is terrific or you're not part of it. There's no scope to think maybe there are things we can do better, or do differently, that the performances (at home at least) have shown no signs of our being good enough to get off the bottom, let alone out of the relegation places. There's no scope to desperately want us to win, but still look at and see and point and want to discuss why we might not have.
If he ever goes, it's interviews like that that make me fear it'll rip the club apart. A conspiracy of a minority will force him out. It'll never be anything he did (did he mention he's got a tiny budget to work with?). It'll be like Ronnie all over again. I saw fans scrapping once because they disagreed about his sacking.
He's a smart, eloquent, sharp-witted guy. He's a brilliant communicator and a very good manipulator of narrative. Rob Staton sounds, in his voice and his questioning ("how unfair is this unfair criticism of the great job you're doing, Steve?") like he's terrified of the bloke.
How we need to win tomorrow. I think we'll get it. His pride his hurt. He'll be unspeakable if they don't perform. They'll play like electric prods are on them. It'll be tremendous.
oh how true that and if you dare have a go at him and his tactics get ready for abuse from the evanettes and their in evasn we trust and their my idiotic comment if he takes us down he wills till be here to bring us back up
are they for real he will be off on his bike looking for new territories with raynor riding side saddle
And as to his comments he give in his post match commentery. he think he is teflon. he has got black in ready as his scapegoat
sorry evans but i see you through your smoke and mirrors routine i deal with people like you everyday at work
the entire blame for our poor performance and recruitment of players is down to you matey boy ur side kick raynor (whats does he do apart from strange sign language) and your chief scout brother does he actually watch these players
roos is a good example of how evans treats a player it seems its anyone in goal but collin he only put him in cos he had too then went searching for another goalie.
he blames him for his distribution yells at him to kick it up field then *******s him when it does not get to a rotherham player.
lets look at the players you brought in bought and on loan and then they have fallen by the way side cos they wont put up with the manure you speak.
my issue he seems to believe that is not his fault that his tactics should work that the ref and the fans who criticise him are the reason we lost
end of rant
up the millers
-- Edited by hillsborough miller on Friday 18th of September 2015 03:10:12 PM
I had the opportunity to meet him a couple of times Kid, albeit only briefly. He is a very charismatic individual, there is no doubt about that. I didn't ask for a kiss though.
I never wanted the man as manager (a view shared by virtually everybody you spoke to before he was appointed and then he talked about what a big club we were and suddenly there was nothing wrong to be said and "who's ever paid cash for anything is basically as bad as what he did at Boston"). I know that must colour my view of him and his achievements. I don't hide that.
But he's done amazingly. Incredibly, almost, given that the idea of swapping the entire team every year and being able to generate the success defies what most other clubs do. And best of all, it's been brilliantly entertaining.
Last year, we'd lose games and I'd still think I'd got my money's worth, because of the heart and effort on display. We were rarely overmatched - sometimes, Bournemouth and Middlesborough were just that much better, but mostly we were competitive. At Christmas, I was baffled that we weren't extending Pringle, Morgan and Revell's contracts (and Arnason's come to that) when we extended Frecklington's. I couldn't believe we sold Revell - for all his limitations, he gave the team "soul" and way of playing that brought other players along; as he chased a lost cause with all his might or threw himself at a header, so others responded and scrapped with him. And he did something that none of the do - he meant that there was always a challenge on the defender, so they weren't playing out with freedom - Derbyshire works, but he never interrupts what the defender means to do. So they pass around us and we can't press effectively because they're always under control. After Revell went, Sammon did a bit of what he did, but it was Ward who came in and offered that competitiveness as the season drew to a close. And a reversion to the core who did so much since League Two - Morgan, Arnason, Pringle, Frecklington - for all the loans and changes.
This year, he lost the core. Whether he could have avoided it you can debate (I think he could - I think he could have contracted Pringle at Christmas and Morgan and Arnason, too; he thought Pringle wasn't good enough - he was bang wrong - and he's paid dearly for offloading because that was our guile, our creativity, gone in a stroke and not replaced), but he lost it. And the way he signs players is, I think, to get whoever's available who's reasonably good and then work out how to fit them all in (how else to explain White and Maguire and Ledesma and then the Belgian lad from Norwich, who's name I can't now remember; or, indeed, Collins and Halford and Rawson and Thorpe, when Broadfoot and Wood were already here). And that's really hard to do: if you haven't a core of players in set positions, how do you integrate a load of players you've not recruited to play a specific role, while you're sifting and shifting and working out where they fit best?
So, he's reverted to his Plan When We Have A Bad Run. Which is pack defence and midfield, block and spoil, keep it tight, make it into a 20 minute game at the end. That was the Preston game. That was how we started against Fulham and then we gave them some goals and we had to chase it and we didn't know how so we sort of belted it forward and hoped. There's nowt wrong with that plan (he's done it before - it works because he says "Look! We do this and we get a point. Believe! Now, do this and we'll win" - but this time, we've not won and it's beginning to show. Collins is forcing his play, covering a cut back that he perceives is there, not playing on instinct and we're a goal down at Brighton. Maguire is snatching at a chance under pressure.)
There was another way. 4 or 5 permanent signings on the back of retaining the trio that left. Season long loans to supplement. Incremental change, as someone might say. Imagine slotting Buxton and Mattock alongside Arnason and Morgan. Imagine White stretching the play on one wing as Pringle slings in a cross from another.
Imagine being brave enough to say "bad start, but we're better than Preston. We're going for it". Instead of Bowery at left back.
He's made mistakes. All to some degree forgivable. But it's ok to make mistakes. It's not ok to make it into an article of faith that they must not be mentioned, or that, by mentioning them, you're some sort of fifth columnist.
It's possible to make big blunders and have that recognised and still not merit being booted out. But to make what you say are blunders (signing too many who weren't good enough to play and having to rely on loans we were not going to do) and then do it again is annoying; especially when it doesn't work. It's even more annoying when you then pretend that you've not made the blunders again that you said you weren't going to make again. It's a whole new world of annoyingness when, having repeated the blunders you said you wouldn't, you set up the contract base of the squad so that you are absolutely nailed on to make the same blunders that you said were blunders for the third time when the season ends.
And that, to me, is the instability at the heart of all of this. This is a guy who operates for "now". If you're not good enough for this moment, you're gone, no matter what your history is with the club (ask Skarz, or Nardiello, or any of the many, many others). But he demands loyalty, even if he's not doing his job effectively for this moment. And if you're building a new side every year, don't you invite the question of who's building it? Most managers after this long would have their own set of players, who it would be expensive and difficult to move on, without setting the team back years. But you could get shut of Evans and start again with very little effort (you could move on most of the squad easily enough with one year deals) - the roots of his longevity are shallow, by his own devising.
People say it's wrong to compare us to Blackpool last year. And in terms of ownership and ambition it is. But in terms of choosing to start a Championship squad from scratch when they didn't have to? In terms of getting an astounding promotion and having nothing to show for it, in terms of the core of a squad? We go down and virtually everyone who's anything about them will be gone. We probably keep Camp (if he's not got a relegation release clause). We probably keep Frecks. But the others will be released or picked off (Smallwood, Thorpe, White, they'll get spots in and around Championship squads). We'll be building again. From scratch. And Evans might be the best man for that. And it might be great fun.
But it could be different. It could be better. And I don't like the idea that it's somehow not ok to express that.
No point talking about relative budgets any longer. Proceeds to talk about relative budgets for the duration of the interview.
4 can leave. Another two are sought on loan. Again.
Criticism is disrespectful. Note it's criticism of both him and TS. Note also it's a minority. Those who know their football, e.g. Brighton's manager, think we're in a false position.
It's all calculated stuff. The element of the fan base that will accept no criticism of the manager are bolstered - they're knowledgeable, they're in the minority, they see the bigger picture. They're (and this is coming if things don't pick up) the "true fans".
Those who are worried, who don't see the team as being nearly there but not quite, they're having a go at TS if they say anything. They're a minority. They're not true fans.
It's the psychology of a cult. Complete obedience to the line that everything is terrific or you're not part of it. There's no scope to think maybe there are things we can do better, or do differently, that the performances (at home at least) have shown no signs of our being good enough to get off the bottom, let alone out of the relegation places. There's no scope to desperately want us to win, but still look at and see and point and want to discuss why we might not have.
If he ever goes, it's interviews like that that make me fear it'll rip the club apart. A conspiracy of a minority will force him out. It'll never be anything he did (did he mention he's got a tiny budget to work with?). It'll be like Ronnie all over again. I saw fans scrapping once because they disagreed about his sacking.
He's a smart, eloquent, sharp-witted guy. He's a brilliant communicator and a very good manipulator of narrative. Rob Staton sounds, in his voice and his questioning ("how unfair is this unfair criticism of the great job you're doing, Steve?") like he's terrified of the bloke.
How we need to win tomorrow. I think we'll get it. His pride his hurt. He'll be unspeakable if they don't perform. They'll play like electric prods are on them. It'll be tremendous.
I cant quite agree with the level of thought and purpose assigned to his communications. This in itself sounds like the very criticism described: one-sided, extreme, analysed and purposed. I dont see this in his interviews at all. Post critical analysis affords this opportunity whatever field of endeavour and that makes the world a colourful place but often one where intent and facts are assumed. One need only to look at the lyrics of Bob Dylan as an example. Bob, im sure was involved in free flow of thought and emotion enhanced by his experience, education and natural inclination coupled with drugs. However, There are those who believe he agonised over every word and produced them with intent, deep knowledge and exquisite purposed metaphor for the self, others and the wider world. No! Im afraid Bob is just an ordinary guy delivering his own brand of expression-lovely as it may be.
There are very rare examples of such high levels of manipulation but they are also very obvious. I do not mean the influence can be observed by the objective watcher, but rather people are persuaded by argument and emotion linked to their own psyches but not as a direct causal effect of a master manipulator.
All the cults and beliefs rely on the receivers inability to be persuaded by evidence, whether this is direct via experience or indirect via personality, and culture. The church of England is no less of a cult then the jumping carrot galactic garlic federation who believe their asparagus saviour is due to appear in a salad bowl very soon. Neither of them have any more manipulation or evidence to back up their story but those that hear them make all the difference. In this sense, one cant assign such manipulative and purpose intent to the central belief or person-like Bob, they are just expressing what they sincerely believe and others decide if its true. Relationships are part of this equation too and so it is totally normal for an individual to collect or become aligned with others as well as to have antagonists and even persecutors.
Steve evans is neither angel or demon, he is just a passionate guy and has his own way of expressing. His actual tactics and ways of doing things dont depart much from lots of others in football management. Anyone with football league player can watch hours of interviews with managers and notice similar traits-its all within normal human behaviour-not extreme.
Also, fans react the same the world over, so thats ok too. Id simple draw the line at unfair criticism (of a direct and personal nature) and unfounded optimism. That does not preclude an opinion of course, which can be reasoned out in support of SE or against him. None is more valid than the other and even if the evidence was laid side by side there would be so many objective facts it would be quite a risk to conclude one was significantly more accurate than the other.
On the role of emotions and unconscious motive there is a very simple experiment.
Think about any important decision you have had to make and write and pros and cons list. No matter how many cons there are you will still choose the opposite if it fits with your emotional and deeper psyche and justify the evidence. Why else would anyone get married once let alone twice like me.
My personal disposition is towards loyalty of anyone in authority and responsibility. I have a well thought out set of beliefs that support this view. It has its limits but it is fairly well embedded. However, there are also exceptions depending on the cir***stances. In politics for example, I am the first to say ' off with his head', at the slightest hint of hypocrisy or failure.
I also prefer to be entertained and SE entertains me.
I also judge him to be passionate and I love people with passion.
This doesnt mean he is the best person for the job, its just I can differentiate my preferences from his performances to an extent.
Therefore , my belief that he should stay manager goes further than some others but maybe not as far as some.
Of course, I wax and wane too and I have just been through a period where I was surprised to find myself hoping he would leave but I noted this was linked to the belief that I thought he wanted to go to The Posh. In terms of my promotion of loyalty, I realised it made sense that I would want him to go-I cant stand disloyalty (probably not to sound a reason to keep someone as well), so, if he was going id help him.
Listen, if we win saturday and finish higher in the table than last year the only thing left will be clearly an individuals preconceived beliefs about him.Funny thing is thought those who suggest there is evidence will just go and find some more or keep using the same old evidence...and visa versa of course.
-- Edited by ian on Friday 18th of September 2015 04:42:44 PM
steve evans has given this club success in a short space of time he is a larger than life figure passionate about the club he currently manages and will be about any club he managers in the future. thats what you get and expect from your manager. but you have to instill this ethos into your players by having a spine that has the same feeling and passion.
But my point is this, the championship is a different ball game than league 1 and a world away from league 2 in both budgets and tactics
evans had last season to trial his method of direct football with another rebuilt team bouncing on a high from wembley success and we survived yes we survived with a game to spare even with a 3 point deduction. which without we would have finished above brighton.
So I was really hopeful with the sound bites and quotes coming post season etc etc hey we could be in for a better ride this season
and it has been such a disappointment start, yes we may need time to gel. we have all posted on here what we as fans percieve where evans and raynor has gone wrong with captain choice, player selection, playing style and man management. Till we have finger cramp and squinting eyes.
Ian loyalty yes you have a point but not blind loyalty to a failing system which is to date is what we are seeing
evans must realise this and make the changes to sort it out going into the loan market for more players after saying i now the players i want is not only bad for player moral but short term because come may next year championship or league 1 will mean another team rebuiild and could be more if league 1 as most of the team will leave or be picked off.
make it work with the players u got in the right formation not 4 5 1 but 4 3 3 or 4 4 2 or daring 3 5 2
so we will be 8 games in on saturday and we are now approaching the time where the playersv have had time to gel they have spent nearly a week away bonding down south.
If steve is as football savie as he think he is then this is the time.
He is honest and telling us what he actually thinks..whether his thoughts are correct is for others to form their own opinion on.
There is no evidence that he thought Pringle was not good enough.
He lost Pringle, Morgan and Revell for money reasons out of his control' same with Arni.
It must be very hard to listen to so much unfair criticism when he has achieved so much and his anger sometimes comes across.
Why shouldn't he talk about budgets when that is the main reason we are struggling and clearly a section of the supporters dont understand that?
He stays loyal to TS but maybe he should just come out with the truth..TS wants the club run on a shoestring budget which makes it virtually impossible to survive in the Championship..thats the truth isnt it?
Chopping and changing players and using the loan market surely is not as difficult to understand as some seem to think..Its simply a reflection of the quality that we can pay and the dynamic situation of availability.
Evans has a rather unique style which will not change and its not easy to know in advance if a certain player will respond to that style and the higher you go the less tolerant players will be to an in your face style..I would assume.
If I could pick any manager to get us out of this hole given the same resources, you know what?..I would pick Steve Evans.
I just hope that on Saturday the supporters stick with him and the team whatever happens and please please let the boo boys just not bother attending.
Ian - that's a great - and somewhat humbling - post. Hat duly doffed.
Thank you David.
Your a true gent.
UTM
Your points about "evidence" are important and of wider application (as you note). Having at one time worked through the research undertaken by modern Israeli archaeologists which concluded that there was not a single shred of evidence to support the Biblical account of the 40 year wandering in the desert and indeed the complete absence of traces of burials, camps, campfires, middens, bones, tools etc, etc made the account almost certainly rubbish I was astonished to hear a fundamentalist Christian evangelist get rapturous applause for stating that "...modern research is increasingly validating Biblical accounts...including the exodus..." People will believe what they want to believe.
