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Millers Banter: Unofficial Rotherham United Fans Forum / Message Board → Football / Sport / RUFC Related → Our club's strategy
 

Topic: Our club's strategy

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Rea65
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Our club's strategy
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According to reports pre season we were looking to finish at least mid table, on the face of it this means that we are currently failing. In truth, the whole club is geared up to compete strongly in league 1 - with any time spent at championship level a bonus. That's ok, but I think some of the statements made by the chairman and manager have led to unrealistic expectations among the fans. So now we are looking of evidence of the quality replacing quantity and instead finding Roos, Collins, Halford, ledesma, etc. So the question is are we happy to accept relegation and a debt free challenge next year? In which case carry on. Or do we think the club should encourage investment, take on debt and strive for championship security? The point being that if this is our chosen option, we need a manager who can recruit the right players and organise them effectively in the championship - and that means we need a new manager.

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BradtheMiller
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Hallelujah brother!!!

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Exetermiller
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Last season after 5 games I knew we had enough about us to stay up, it became easier so many clubs imploding around us, then harder by our own doing / decision making / selection policy / in game management. This season we still have that, lesson's have not been learned and we've recruited badly. The buck stops at management, if this goes on another 10 games I've no doubt TS will do what he needs. He has provided the tools he believes are enough to keep us in this league and he will see this as failing. I don't think he even wants to even contemplate the contingency of relegation to L1 we know how hard it will be to get back.

Stats are what you make them. 4.8m versus 60m means jack to me, here's another, on 2.5m wages our team was twice as good as this - again buck stops at management. They rolled, they lost, their recruitment policy was bound to fail at some point, revolving door, no kids coming through, short termism etc.

I've seen enough of SE and PR to know our position has outgrown them, they have been asked for the first time in their careers to compete not having the top 3-5 budgets in their league. While this is a tough ask, they can't deliver making the absolute best of what they have to work with- time to find someone who can.

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sickly child
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Unfortunately you may be right Ex.

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Andy Monium
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Come on TS talk to your advisors. Do you want a team to compete in the Championship next season?







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oneaday
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That's the problem though Ex 'find someone who will'.

Who??????

You could take on a young, up & coming manager (just like Evans was) and he could prove to be another Andy Scott. Or you could take on a proven journeyman Championship manager who could prove to be another Malky MaKay.

There is plenty of tosh in this division for me to be confident of staying up: Bolton, Blackburn, MK Dons, Huddersfield, Preston, Bristol C, Reading, Sheff Weds, Leeds.

We will find our mojo and we will win games.

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ridgeway kid
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oneaday wrote:

That's the problem though Ex 'find someone who will'.

Who??????

You could take on a young, up & coming manager (just like Evans was) and he could prove to be another Andy Scott. Or you could take on a proven journeyman Championship manager who could prove to be another Malky MaKay.

There is plenty of tosh in this division for me to be confident of staying up: Bolton, Blackburn, MK Dons, Huddersfield, Preston, Bristol C, Reading, Sheff Weds, Leeds.

We will find our mojo and we will win games.

 There is no greater tosh than the tosh at NYS.  The problem, of course, extends far beyond our current travails and is imo a structural one related to automatic promotion and relegation and the play-offs.  These are and were appropriate to a situation where there was little distinction between the top quartile of one division and the bottom quartile of the one above.  As regards entry into either the Prem or the Championship they are boloney.  The FA should introduce a system of only the Champions being promoted and ONLY if they meet stated criteria in terms of stadia, facilities and attendance.  The other 3 clubs below them should stand for election against the second bottom club in the league above and either that club or one of the promotion candidates could be voted in by the recipient clubs.  Clubs that failed to satisfy the criteria or lost out on election would be compensated with payments of say £1m to £5m so that over time they might aspire to moving up.  We might then have  aperiod such as RUFC enjoyed in the post-war period of several runner-up seasons, sparkling football and large crowds.  RUFC at present is not fit to play in the Championship.  Harsh but true.



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oneaday
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Don't agree. What they should do is dispense with the parachute payments and make clubs live within their means. If a rich owner wants to pump millions in then fine, but make them put it in as share capital or sponsorship and not as loans.

I don't think it's fair for a team who has been managed correctly to be refused entry to a league because they don't meet certain criteria.

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Exetermiller
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Similar was done 50yrs ago was it not, until we made it into a sport where achievement gives you the right, its horrible that this achievement should be backed by money, but in part I agree - what I wish is it wasn't that. We are suffering from widening inequality, Sky and agents the blame purely rests at their door. The 'greatest league in the world', will become the only league in this country, its their endgame and we are fast approaching. The PL keeps getting more, the CH clubs are crippling themselves with debt to reach it, the rest will be left in a semi pro regional affair acting as feeders for the PL. This will happen in the next 30yrs, call that progress? I see it as the death of football

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Towdlad
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An interesting debate and I would agree with Exeter. But what do we do now, this season. We keep telling each other that we cant compete because of the financial constraints set by the club, but I cant believe an astute business man like TS and the other backers would commit to the Championship if we weren't ready. Theres no glory in subjecting your club to being the door mat for every other club to walk over as at the moment.

I think we can compete within the budget. Good man management to build a good team spirit and respect, integrity from the coaching team, a mixture of youth and experience on the field and enthusiasm can make up for lack of prime skill. But there's the problem, I dont think the present set up can, for various reasons, achieve any of that, I think they have reached their limit and gone stale. No disgrace there, but it needs an injection of fresh blood, new ideas, but who can deliver that, its always a gamble, but the club just cant shrug and say we cant compete and accept the real possibility of relegation. It can be done, Ronnie did it until he went stale and the older players left and were not replaced with like, but it was done.

TS and Co have a lot of hard thinking to do now, I wouldn't know where to look or who to appoint, but they have to bite the bullet, sooner rather than later.

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ridgeway kid
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Well I stand by my view.  RUFC have brought nothing to the Championship and their stay is likely to be self-destructive if anything.  Crowds will fall away; youngsters in particular don't want to watch their team being beaten up week after week.

I don't consider most fans' views as objective anyway.  On another Millers forum I read an excellent summation of our position.  But suddenly someone interjected that given our resources and expenditure etc SE was "doing a great job."  Cue general agreement.  In terms of this season this is pure rubbish.  We have one point having played arguably some of the weaker teams in the division.  I can hardly conceive of any manager doing much worse.  Evans has no policy or regard for bringing through youngsters, believes established players are a threat to his authority and ships them out or makes no real effort to keep them, never investigates overseas markets other than Scotland and was abdolutely determined to send out our (arguably) best forward on loan.  The whole thing is becoming a joke.



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ian
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It's true the strategy can only be described as short-termism.

It was clearly a mistake and quite a mistake at that to let pringle, Morgan and arnie go. Arguably, Morgan and pringle might have signed if deals had been put on the table early enough.

SE and TS have tried to buy like The Posh have with bowery and JCH and one or two others but thus far to little effect. It has to be said that we are buying in at somewhat of a lower price to the brentford, cherries, even peterborough s. Hence rewards are harder perhaps to come by.

If you compare swindon and -MK dons to RUFC you see 2 clubs with similar philosophical positions with dynamic managers and great recruitment and retention plus judicious use of the loan market. However, only one has had success and I think SE sits somewhere else entirely but has had more success thus far.

Will it fail because of the philosophy or will it preserve because of it. Not sure but clearly we the fans are very and rightly worried and some connection to players needs to be established again and maintained.



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gazmadmiller
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Just a quick thought on the origional posters comments (and this is not a dig), if we are set up/setting up to be a debt free Lge 1 side we are going to fail at that two. Reason - the club is actually set up to use the payments made by the football league, Sky etc to bring the players in that we have. Take away that revenue we are some 4 n a bit million down before kicking a ball at a lower level (not that i hope we are). Hence another massive scouting pre season but with a conciderably smaller budget. Just an observation

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Towdlad
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gazmadmiller wrote:

Just a quick thought on the origional posters comments (and this is not a dig), if we are set up/setting up to be a debt free Lge 1 side we are going to fail at that two. Reason - the club is actually set up to use the payments made by the football league, Sky etc to bring the players in that we have. Take away that revenue we are some 4 n a bit million down before kicking a ball at a lower level (not that i hope we are). Hence another massive scouting pre season but with a conciderably smaller budget. Just an observation

 Absolutely, in addition smaller crowds, smaller corporate income through sponsorship etc. Not a disaster, but a bit like a game of snakes and ladders. Does TS really want to see us back at square one I cant see him letting it happen. 



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smiler
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With the greatest of respect I don't agree with the premise upon which Rea65 based his question. It doesn't have to be (1) spend small and go down or (2) invest big and go bust. For me there is a third and better way, which is to spend wisely and develop. If we can't produce our own young players (for pity's sake give them a chance - why the hell not give Yates a run out against Norwich?) there are good young players in the leagues below us or surplus to requirements at clubs who would not cost the earth and to whom we could add value. Witness what Brentford did with Andre Gray and what Coventry/Biurnemouth did with Callum Wilson - both now worth multi-millions. Young, hungry players are the way ahead. The nearest we have had was Agard. If it doesn't work we won't break the bank trying. Thirty plus year olds on short term deals and high-ish wages mixed with loan players and a revolving door policy year on year will only ever keep us static at best and probably see us relegated sooner rather than later. The questions for me are whether SE can spot and develop a talent and whether he has the courage to play that sort of player. I would suggest that when push comes to shove he favours the safe option of experience over youth. Hence Collins and Halford ahead of Thorpe, or loanees like Becchio and Sammon ahead of JCH or Bowery. The odd one for me is that he is willing to go with a young untried loan player in the one position in which experience is crucial - in goal.

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Millmoormagic
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smiler wrote:

With the greatest of respect I don't agree with the premise upon which Rea65 based his question. It doesn't have to be (1) spend small and go down or (2) invest big and go bust. For me there is a third and better way, which is to spend wisely and develop. If we can't produce our own young players (for pity's sake give them a chance - why the hell not give Yates a run out against Norwich?) there are good young players in the leagues below us or surplus to requirements at clubs who would not cost the earth and to whom we could add value. Witness what Brentford did with Andre Gray and what Coventry/Biurnemouth did with Callum Wilson - both now worth multi-millions. Young, hungry players are the way ahead. The nearest we have had was Agard. If it doesn't work we won't break the bank trying. Thirty plus year olds on short term deals and high-ish wages mixed with loan players and a revolving door policy year on year will only ever keep us static at best and probably see us relegated sooner rather than later. The questions for me are whether SE can spot and develop a talent and whether he has the courage to play that sort of player. I would suggest that when push comes to shove he favours the safe option of experience over youth. Hence Collins and Halford ahead of Thorpe, or loanees like Becchio and Sammon ahead of JCH or Bowery. The odd one for me is that he is willing to go with a young untried loan player in the one position in which experience is crucial - in goal.

 This ^^^ is my view also, as stated on another thread, i'd play Thorpe and Rawson at centre back, we already know about Rawson's talent there, on another note, only 5 more games and Broadfoot is back!!!



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gazmadmiller
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smiler wrote:

 The questions for me are whether SE can spot and develop a talent and whether he has the courage to play that sort of player. I would suggest that when push comes to shove he favours the safe option of experience over youth. Hence Collins and Halford ahead of Thorpe, or loanees like Becchio and Sammon ahead of JCH or Bowery. The odd one for me is that he is willing to go with a young untried loan player in the one position in which experience is crucial - in goal.

 SE is not a "coach" he wouldnt spot a talent (unless it was in a pizza box) if it was handed on a plate to him. He is a motivational manager who every time will buy, beg or borrow "experienced" players over home grown or lower league youth. This has been blatently obvious since his reign here began nodisbeliefno



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Rea65
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I agree entirely that it doesn't have to be feast or famine - a prudent and moderately ambitious transfer policy would be right for us.
The reason for my original post is that I'm trying to rationalise the current strategy - which I fear is something along the lines of "talk the club up, keep the punters coming in, but stick to 1 year deals and don't go mad - that way if we go down we'll be ok".
This will fall between 2 stools, not ambitious enough to take us forward, but as some have indicated we are probably in too deep to drop back to the lower divisions without a big gap in our finances to fill.


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smiler
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The evidence certainly points in that direction Gaz. I understand your point Rea if I misunderstood your original post I apologise. As I said on another thread, my impression is that there is level of agreement amongst Millers about what they are watching the like of which is seldom seen.

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ChesterGreenMiller
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This is a wonderful thread with some excellently presented and considered views. I'd like to add my thoughts for what they're worth...

The three biggest things annoying me/worrying me at the moment are...

1) Being economical with the truth to fans

2) Not appreciating what you have got

3) Not developing the club off the field as we were promised

Point 1 - What annoys me about the club more than anything at the moment is that they think the fans are idiots. On promotion, they told us we'd not be here to make up the numbers, why not three promotions on't trot, we'll invest etc. Call me a cynic, but it always seems to coincide with the drive for season ticket sales. The same happened again this season, only this time (having, I can only assume realised just how difficult this division is last season) we played the "learnt from last season's mistakes and are stronger for it" card, and as a result we'd be midtable this season. Even more interestingly, when Evans was on Sky Sports news for the day during pre-season, he accidentally mentioned our goals were to survive, then realised what he'd said and corrected himself saying they were our bare minimum goals.

Just be honest with us. Any Miller going knows we're punching above our weight at this level, particularly now the league has strengthened (in budgetary terms, at least). We were the bookies favourites and for a reason. Smallest crowds (that would still stand up very well in League 1), lowest wage bill, average-wealth Chairman (comparitively, not disrespectfully) and so it dictates that we'd be favourites for the drop. And let's be honest, barring a top half finish, it will be the same every season.

Point 2 - But we've not helped ourselves this time at all. I always say, Evans has this paranoia that what he's got isn't good enough an that if players have played at this level before, their experience counts for absolutely everything. Well it doesn't. JCH has played about a dozen games and has 3 or 4 goals. Collins was hated by Sunderland and Forest fans and I think we're seeing why. Losing the Morgan and Arnason was catastrophic, but doing it at the same time as losing our most creative midfielder in Pringle was, as is now proving, insanity. Small, incremental change not big bang get rid if your captain and two of your best performers in the hope it will be ok.

Point 3 - what is going on? Why are the units not filled, we've been here 4 years and we're a Championship club (in paper, anyway). Smaller clubs like Chezzy and Donny seem to be making it work. We're slap bang in Rotherham and we can't do more than get Lindley's to sell us beer and pies (and not very well). Is that the big masterplan? Outsource to crap companies, not realise any profit per volume and not utilise the units? 

And what about the training ground? The future of lower league sport in this country, is pretty clearly in youth development. And yet we're lagging behind when we shouldn't be. Why? Where's the promised investment gone? What's stalling it? These are the things we need to be hearing from the club, not how we managed to chase off Bayern Munich and Benfica for Ladesma's signature (despite the might if Walsall not wanting him a few years back).

We've got the right idea in terms of fees paid. Young players with the potential to develop them and sell them on for more. But then we're not daring enough to give them a run, the fans practically had to force Evans to play JCH (and drop Roos) and Bowery hasn't played as many games as his fee commands. So either it was a poor investment or we're not giving them the game time to realise their potential and sell them on. Newell has started like a train so hopefully he won't become bit part as well.

Finally, a strategy would never be to Captain a player that ties his hair up in a bun. Craig Morgan looked like if you chucked him on the jungle he'd come out with a dead bear in his hands, whereas Halford for all his size looks like the one thing he'd take on a desert island is a hand mirror. 

I'd forgive him for his hair if he looked up for it and interested. He doesn't. That's our captain. How on earth?



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