Great to see QPR to leave it to the individual players on whether they want to take the knee and support something they may not believe in. Not going to get into the political side of BLM as this isn't a politics site, just think it is a more sensible approach for a club to take.
I respectfully disagree. Leaving it to players to decide is a cop out. It puts players in a difficult position deciding what to do in public view and whether and how to explain their decision. That is unfair on them. They wouldnt all enjoy being in that position. As a for instance I personally probably wouldnt take the knee given the choice, but not because I dont support the cause. It's not always clear cut. Clubs need to have the balls to say as a matter of policy we are doing it and expect our employees (players) to get in line or as a matter of policy we arent and we expect our players to get in line. There is nothing unusual about that. Employees have to represent and follow policy and reasonable instructions on all sorts of instances. That takes the pressure off the players who can say they are following those instructions. Whether they choose to then say anything beyond that is up to them.
Trouble is Splinter, the message is different depending what your agenda is. It would be interesting to ask each individual player what taking a knee meant to them and whether or not they felt comfortable participating. A poll of the average football crowd might offer a totally different opinion. The result could be tension and vocal disapproval. Accordingly, I feel they need to stop before supporters are allowed back in stadia.
smiler that is the biggest load of b******s I have ever heard, it is not ever correct for a employer to enforce their politics upon their workers, in fact it is against most organisations Policies for bribery & corruption (I know I write them for a living). Free will and free speech are very important, forcing players to take the knee which is supporting a certain political movement is disgusting behaviour, thank god you are not in charge of any organisation or country that I live in.
Wow, that's an aggressive response Derby. Your characterisation of Black Lives Matter as a political movement is an interesting one. I think a group of people have tried to hijack the name and run with it as a political party, and it certainly touches political issues, but I also think that many view it as a social movement and that is how I would characterise it. I believe that the football authorities take that view ie they support the movement against social injustice rather than any political affiliation, which they shied away from. Is Kick It Out also a political movement? You tell me. Could a player refuse to wear a Kick It Out shirt when we have that event at a home game every year? What about Equality and Inclusion initiatives, which clubs do openly support with most having not only policies of supporting but officers to promote? Are they political? Players are contractually obliged to do more tha just play football. I guess it might be something we would have to ask an employment lawyer about if it came to it. Maybe you are one. I'd suggest to you that it might not be as simple as you have made it out to be. And this debate perhaps illustrates why this has become a thorny one and a difficult one for clubs and players alike to deal with.
-- Edited by smiler on Wednesday 25th of November 2020 10:58:43 PM
-- Edited by smiler on Wednesday 25th of November 2020 11:26:03 PM
Any self respecting man would never 'take the knee' unless he's being knighted or asking a girls hand in marriage. It's all a nonsense and a fad, and I shouldn't wonder they'll feel very embarrassed before long.
I dont think taking the knee is for me. Given the option I wouldnt do it for the protest against social injustice. I wouldnt accept a knighthood. And with hindsight I'm not sure the marriage proposal was my best idea.
I dont think taking the knee is for me. Given the option I wouldnt do it for the protest against social injustice. I wouldnt accept a knighthood. And with hindsight I'm not sure the marriage proposal was my best idea.
I don't know mate - Sir Smiler has a certain ring to it!
After today's debacle, it's good to be able to deflect attention away from Rotherham's performance.
I see that fans booed today as players took a knee at the Millwall v Derby game. No surprise whatsoever to me. However, Micah Richards and Dion Dublin have already come out and stated that this means the fans are racist. Absolute B..locks and a total misunderstanding of the issue at stake and the feelings among the general public.
Football matches are not a stage for political statements; for goodness sake, players wore rainbow laces today! They are events where normal people go for some excitement and escapism. If your average footballer had half a brain I might have more sympathy with their intentions, but I doubt many of them have any idea of the origins of taking the knee and the tarnished message that such an act can impart. Players kneeling and raising a fist will only amplify the dissatisfaction amongst supporters.
It will be interesting to see the reaction at Chelsea this evening and, if there is booing, if the BBC will show it on MOTD!
It's a point of view Glenn. Racism is real and it is a scourge in our society. There surely can be no debate about that. Whether or not football should try to be a force for social progress is a moot point. All clubs have a charter that promotes equal opportunity and work hard to promote that in their communities. I personally think that football clubs are an important part of any community and that that is a good thing. Black people are represented in the sport well relative to most other lines of work and are (rightly or wrongly) role models for young fans, so I see the force in it. But I do also see your point which as I understand it is that football matches should stand apart from all if that as a source of escapism and entertainment. It would also be wrong to assume that everyone booing at Millwall had the same motivation. Some might support the cause but think kneeling isnt the right way to advance it. Some might just be tired of it as you are. Some might think football shouldn't get involved in that sort of thing. Others might just be racist. Most likely, it's a complex mix of those and other factors. It's all got a bit messy. I know what my thoughts are but I can respect other views, as long as they are not underpinned by racism which I find abhorrent and have no respect for.
Smiler - I have no difficulty at all with the assertion that racism is a scourge in our society and that we all have a responsibility for eradicating it. However, it's a complex issue and one that is open to misinterpretation as well as being fertile ground for virtue signallers. Ways of addressing racism need to be carefully considered and constructed because, done badly, they can have the opposite effect.
None racist, law abiding citizens of this country are now bombarded on a daily basis with accusations of white privilege and are encouraged to hang their heads in shame because of the inherited racial guilt from their forefathers when building this country, which many consider to be a great nation.
I believe the majority of people in this country are decent, tolerant and fair-minded, regardless of colour, gender or sexuality. However, they are also proud and strong enough to rebel if something serves to undermine what they consider to be acceptable. So we have football, a massively popular, mainly working class sport in which colour largely holds no barriers to success, which assigns quotas to it's pundits to ensure representation across a wide spectrum and which rewards its participants with eyewatering salaries, regardless of colour - it may well be viewed by many as the most egalitarian element of our society.
In backing Black Lives Matter, football has backed the wrong horse in my opinion. The movement has it's origins in a country which has major racial issues, involved a vile police officer whose actions resulted in the death of an equally vile black man. The motivations of the movement have become extreme and, in actions such as promoting the defunding of the police, are far removed from a campaign against racial discrimination. For football to associate itself with such a controversial movement is a mistake which stands to do more harm than good and will possibly have a negative influence on the otherwise laudable intentions to eliminate racism in sport.
I suggest it's time for a reset and a rethink of the taking a knee ritual. There are better and less inflammatory ways of addressing the issue in my honest opinion.
Smiler - I have no difficulty at all with the assertion that racism is a scourge in our society and that we all have a responsibility for eradicating it. However, it's a complex issue and one that is open to misinterpretation as well as being fertile ground for virtue signallers. Ways of addressing racism need to be carefully considered and constructed because, done badly, they can have the opposite effect.
None racist, law abiding citizens of this country are now bombarded on a daily basis with accusations of white privilege and are encouraged to hang their heads in shame because of the inherited racial guilt from their forefathers when building this country, which many consider to be a great nation.
I believe the majority of people in this country are decent, tolerant and fair-minded, regardless of colour, gender or sexuality. However, they are also proud and strong enough to rebel if something serves to undermine what they consider to be acceptable. So we have football, a massively popular, mainly working class sport in which colour largely holds no barriers to success, which assigns quotas to it's pundits to ensure representation across a wide spectrum and which rewards its participants with eyewatering salaries, regardless of colour - it may well be viewed by many as the most egalitarian element of our society.
In backing Black Lives Matter, football has backed the wrong horse in my opinion. The movement has it's origins in a country which has major racial issues, involved a vile police officer whose actions resulted in the death of an equally vile black man. The motivations of the movement have become extreme and, in actions such as promoting the defunding of the police, are far removed from a campaign against racial discrimination. For football to associate itself with such a controversial movement is a mistake which stands to do more harm than good and will possibly have a negative influence on the otherwise laudable intentions to eliminate racism in sport.
I suggest it's time for a reset and a rethink of the taking a knee ritual. There are better and less inflammatory ways of addressing the issue in my honest opinion.
Just to be clear, I wasn't for one second suggesting that you are in any way racist Glenn. Far from it. I hope that is clear and I hope you knew that. You make many good and valid points.
I think the football authorities jumped too quickly on the BLM movement bandwagon but have since sought to distance themselves from it. I don't personally support the BLM political movement. I think it is clumsily named to start with, and it has been hijacked to a large extent.
I do and will support well intentioned anti-racism campaigns. I have mixed race family members and have seen first hand the very real challenges that they have faced in their day-to-day lives for no reason other than the colour of their skin. When it is literally an everyday occurrence, it can grind you down and have a real impact on your life. I also accept that all races are capable of racism - it isn't necessarily a case of white people being the only racists around.
I'm afraid that I don't quite share your assessment of attitudes to race in this country. I don't think we are any worse than anywhere else but I don't think it is easy to talk about what the majority of people are or aren't like, because it isn't as easy as 'are you racist or not'? It is probably a sliding scale on a person by person basis. I instinctively abhor racism and don't think I am a racist, but occasionally I call into question my own thoughts and attitudes. John Terry called a fellow professional a 'black b*****d' but claimed not to be a racist person. Other people in the public eye have been pulled for saying things that are obviously racist seen in isolation but claim that they aren't racist and that those individual statements do not represent what they really think.
It is difficult to sum these complicated issues up in pithy sentences. As you say, these are complex issues. I would say that racism is a very real issue in our society, that there is a minority of people in this country who are either overtly and unashamedly racist, that there is a larger number of people who perhaps think they aren't racist but are quick to respond to racist dogwhistles and base instinct, and that overall we still have a lot of work to do as a society.
I agree with you that taking the knee has run its course. I agree with you that there can come a point at which it became counter-productive. I think the club should do its bit to promote equality and diversity, but do so without alienating decent people. I probably wouldn't want to align myself though with the Millwall supporters who chose to boo yesterday. I suspect that my mindset and indeed your mindset may not sync with all of them.
Your Knighthood may still be in the post. The New Years Honours List isn't far away. Fingers crossed!
It's good to have a decent discussion about these issues without being 'labelled', which tends to be the instant reaction from groups advocating one side or the other! Perhaps that's the way forward?
As for a Knighthood, I'll settle for a win and a couple of draws over the Christmas period!
It's good to have a decent discussion about these issues without being 'labelled', which tends to be the instant reaction from groups advocating one side or the other! Perhaps that's the way forward?
As for a Knighthood, I'll settle for a win and a couple of draws over the Christmas period!
I think that is right Glenn. There is too much polarisation and too many labels. Brexiteer or Remainer. Racist or not. Etc. Interestingly, extremists are often the first to resort to polarising labels because it suits them to take the debate into that territory where rhetoric overtakes fact so that uncomfortable facts melt away. Trump does it. When his opponents criticise him his default response is to give them an insulting nickname and a label (Sleepy Joe, Pocahontas, Never-Trumper, Rocket Man, anti-American etc). Authoritarian leaders on the extreme left and right have done it through history. Opponents are labelled as insurgents or enemies of the State and the merits of a case quickly disappear. In some countries so do some people.
In truth, most peoples' attitudes on most subjects are probably within a few percentage points of the middle ground as on a normal curve but often extremists hijack debate, which is a shame.
On this site, in Gwru's mind you are either a genius like him who can see that Warne is useless or you are a Warney Boy (whatever that means in his mind) because you don't agree with him. A classic example in that context of what we are talking about.
I fear I will be passed over for an Honour again. Like you, I will gladly take a healthy points return in its place.
Stay safe.
-- Edited by smiler on Sunday 6th of December 2020 12:22:26 PM
According to the main board, Deeney has said he will refuse to play if there is any booing at tonight's pre match ritual.
Can I offer a bit of advice to Troy, who I don't think is blessed in the brain department?
Many football fans, rightly or wrongly, associate Taking The Knee with the Black Lives Matter political organisation which has some rather controversial policies. Those same fans do not like their game being used as a showcase for a political movement and will make their feelings known if and when they are allowed inside stadia.
Kick It Out is the recognised anti-racism movement in football and it has been well supported. Tonight, QPR and Millwall players will link arms in a show of support for Kick It Out. Wonderful idea and one which I would fully support.
Can I advise Troy to get behind Kick It Out, link arms with a couple of our boys in Red and White, and leave the crowd in no doubt that he is there to advocate for the abolition of racism in sport and not for any other questionable purpose. I think he might find the fans appreciate his gesture.
