Nick Robinson is "moderating" the BBC debate between Corbyn and Johnson tonight.
A bit like having Alex Ferguson referee a Manchester derby.

I must agree to disagree but the one thing that we all should be aware of & frightened of is p48 of the Tory manifesto. Read it for yourself (it's downloadable) & work out for yourself the probable repercussions for everyone.

Cant quite agree with you smiler that he surrounded himself with like minded people. I would suggest the contrary is nearer the mark. Tom Watson as deputy leader, hardly as socialist, Keir Starmer? wouldn't know a socialist from a frankfurter sausage. I think he tried to heal the divisions by appointing Blairites, to appease his detractors in the hope of finding a common ground, but just about all of them within a week or so, staged a walk out in a very well publicised mass resignation. The remainder sticking the knife in at every opportunity.

From the off they tried to unseat him by mounting a leadership challenge that failed. They tried to smear him with antisemitism and failed. They then went after his allies in the party like Livingstone and Williams to weaken him; then gradually turned on the screws. Surrounded by Blairites who publicly criticised and abused him which was mana from heaven for the bias media; openly boasting they would rather see the Labour Party destroyed rather than see Corbyn as Prime Minister. A very British Coup if ever there was one. Yet despite being 'unelectable' he won a landslide leadership challenge. He increased the membership to almost three quarters of a million and only just lost out on the 2017 election despite seeing the biggest increase in the Labour vote since 1945.All this against a bias media calling him a friend of IRA terrorism (untrue by the way) and the MI5 chief announcing he was a threat to national security. Strangely enough, The MI5 chief came out and said the same thing before this election too....If he was why wasn't he arrested, why did the queen appoint him as her leader of the opposition? Strange.

I see the hand of Blair behind this and through it all we are looking at the last days of the so called Labour party. Its as clear as day to me that the car crash result for Labour at this election has been carefully engineered from within the Parliamentary Labour party itself. Why else would they change tack on Brexit in the full knowledge that they were alienating millions of Labour voters. Why else would they come up with the nonsense proposals, if elected, to get a Brexit deal and then campaign against it. I dont think Corbyn has had much say in the matter. Its been obvious for some time that he was leader in name only. An 8 year old could see through it.

I resigned from the party in 1984 due to Kinnock's stance on the Miners strike. I rejoined after Corbyn became leader in the belief that we were seeing a renaisance of a traditional party dedicated to being the voice and representation of ordinary people in Parliament. I resigned again a month ago as I could not vote for the Party. The Benn surrender act was the last straw for me, and glad that the great democrat Tony Benn was not around to witness the betrayal not only of the party but of the millions of would be voters who need more than ever someone to stand up for them in Parliament.

I'm a LPM but unless we drop the 70's nationalise everything attitude we are going nowhere- too easy for the right wing media to play this back to people as a disaster. Tony Blair was the best we have had in actually having a credible plan to win. It's better to be a centre left government than a left wing opposition in my view. Boris Johnson is a joke of a man and any half coherent centre left candidate would have wiped the floor with him. Corbyn was a dream for The Mail from day one - a man who has courted controversy for 30 years comes with a lot of baggage and is an easy target. We have to return to centre left or we are in opposition forever.

It's good to have a proper thread with a series of worthwhile contributions and people weighing up what others are saying. It's a shame it has to be on the non-football side of the board.

Labour should do its homework and find out the real reasons why so many voters in its traditional heartland deserted it.  I suspect the views on this short thread are not untypical of what the 'man in the street' thinks.  I am sure its flip flop policy on Brexit was the main answer but it may not have been the whole answer.  That needs to inform where it goes from here.

 

Personally I fear a bit for the Labour Party. The rank and file wont accept a centrist leader and the public wont accept a left winger. They need someone fresh and electable to cut through it all and unite the Party. Im not sure who that someone might be.  Things move on.  Boris was the beneficiary of an extraordinary set of cir***stances but he will be a disaster and will be found out and Labour need to be well placed to be strong when he is.

-- Edited by smiler on Wednesday 18th of December 2019 06:59:47 AM

I havent read that but I will make an effort to do so. I have had it recommended more than once. Thanks for the pointer. John Smith passing away as he did was a tragedy. I think people tend to forget about him and I think he would have been a real.force in politics for a long time. One of my prized possessions is a copy of one of the volumes of Tony Benns Diaries signed by the man himself - one of my political heroes. I was lucky enough to meet him and asked him to sign the book. Not only did he do that very graciously but he spent half an hour or so chewing the fat just like we are now - no airs and graces. The insight into life in politics from those diaries was fascinating. He had no time for some in his own party who were disingenuous but had a lot of time for politicians of conviction even if they were on the other benches (Keith Joseph as an example). How the Labour Party could do with a man of the stature of Smith or Benn now!

Just going back to the OP on this and it was very interesting how the Tories used the BBC bias thing to it's extreme claiming they were the ones being wronged and even boycotting the Today programme on Radio 4. Its a classic tactic to not only cover their mates tracks who now run the BBC but also to make the public think that the easy ride they were given was a thorough examination of their proposal. It was tosh - Johnson was a bumbling misogynist and racist fool on all fronts and never actually answered a question. He also dodged Andrew Neil but was allowed a voice with softer interviewers. Threatening the BBC as they have done and getting the public to validate this is something straight from Putin's disinformation playbook.