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Topic: Perspective

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Tivoli Tim
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Hello,

read this site for a while but first post (fully expect a level of abuse).

Lets's look at the facts. We are a fairly small club in the grand scheme of things. Clubs have spent millions (Burton & Barnsley have spend millions on fees and wages and that hasn't fully played out yet). We have a core of around 8,000 fans. With all due respect we cannot afford to spend millions on players and there wages. What I will agree is that what we have had we have spent........well you might as well have given it to me. Do we want to be in the same position as say Bolton, where the owner was owed £150 million and nearly go to the wall. Mr Stewart is spending within the means of the club or if you look at the accounts that were published recently, cover the costs to a limit. We are never going to be a big club, the championship is realistically the best we can hope for. the develop talent by buying young players is the best we can hope for. if like Barnsley a 'gem' comes along that means we can spend a little more then so be it. they haven't pulled up any trees since offloading Winnall and Hourihane. There are no guarantees in football. This comment is not supposed to be negative but I'm being realistic. Do we want to be massively in debt and go to the wall. The Championship is not a level paying field. The Premier League is the panacea that everyone strives to; you have to have an ambition. if Mr Stewart has that, great. but he is never going to spend outside our means which in my eyes is good. I will leave this point now with a comment about another Championship club - Ipswich. I know a few of their supporters. They see there limitation in being Mick. He sees a limitation being his budget. The owner Marcus Evans would lover to pass the club over to someone else. But he wants his £82m back that he has invested in the club. they average 17,000 per game double our gate so in theory they can afford double the wages. There will be a lot of clubs like that in the championship but after five years of relative success our fans base is as above. The maths do not stack up. I for one am glad that we are debt free and healthy. don't wish for something too much or you just might get it. Remember Anton Johnson!

The appointments of Paul Warne. Is this such a bad thing? The negative and it has been pointed out is that he has won three games since the end of November; lost nine on the bounce; records being knocked over like skittles. Supposedly Richie Barker is coming in. He got the sack From Crawley & Portsmouth for losing 7 & 6 games on the bounce. How could Tony Stewart then give Warnsey the job? well what are the options? when is December he stated that RUFC had had 50 applications he stated that the applicants was the usual names on the merry go round. Why like when he got Steve Evans has he not approached a Phil Brown or Paul Hurst. Personally I would have gone for Cotterill as he is a decent manager in L1 and see if he has learnt a lesson from when he was at Bristol City.

After saying that I don't have a problems with Warnes. He does know the club. the comment the other day about payers coming and seeing him to improve was interesting. to me it seemed that he had a mentality of being a caretaker. just doing enough to keep it ticking along. I also read it as he is now going to get tough with the players.

We have Jamie Johnson. yes some view a database as being like Football Manager but Brentford have used statistical Analysis for years and its worked for them. its just that we will be looking at a lower scale of player.

After all my ramblings I am a Miller through and through and I am disappointed by what this season has brought. My Son cried on Saturday. he has only known success. I just explained that everything goes in a cycle. We will be back!

All aboard the rollercoaster again



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NewYorkshire
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Why would you beta level of abuse? I don't think it's that kind of board and we only have one pet troll. Your opinion is yours to have - I disagree with it but that means sod all. It's good to see new posters tbh.

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BradtheMiller
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You're very welcome mate, it'll be nice for our dwindling bunch of happy clappers to have a new member.

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smiler
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Lots of fair points Tim. I agree with your basic message, which is that things could be worse and that we will bounce back one day. At the same time, we all have a stake in our club and we have to be allowed to voice constructive criticism when we feel that it isn't being run well. I have said many times that there is no shame in us being relegated from the Championship. The manner of it though - the short term scrambling in a desperate bid to stay up followed by a capitulation - has been shameful, and it is right that Mr Stewart knows how we feel about that.

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Davidedin
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Hi,

Many of us on here have seen very bad times in Millers terms, much worse in terms of financial situation than we are in now.

Also, like many on here, we are not doom mungers or only come on when times are bad, we would much rather be sharing the joy of Wembley playoffs or running on the pitch and shouting 'There's only one TS'

What fuels our anger is the missed opportunity, the poor decision making, the repeated mistakes... things that we could argue any reasonable business with similar means and opportunity would do much better with.

Very Very simple things like not selling Ward are facts that cannot be ignored and cannot be excused in business terms let alone football terms.

We all realise than TS does not have the bankroll or backing that some clubs have, but equally I've never bought into the idea that a club 'our size' can't be successful. There are many many other examples of successful clubs the size of our club, town and potential fan base.

I think it is very wrong to think we are overreacting because we are expecting too much. That is what allows Owls fans to sing “you’re just a small town in Sheffield”… we have every right to be ambitious and every opportunity to be as successful as many clubs in towns the same size as us. There are no local clubs in the Premiership, if we, Barnsley, Chesterfield or Donny made it there, any of those clubs, including ours, would sell 20,000+ tickets a game from fans in the Yorkshire area who would want to watch premiership football, and with all the money that follows being in the Premiership

I’m not saying we will ever be in the premiership, I AM saying there are no business reasons why we can’t, and certainly crowd wise, already proven we can be a successful championship club.

As a club we all love.. we are bitter and disappointed because we can see we have wasted an opportunity, we have got worse rather than better at dealing with players and their contracts and we have zero faith in Warne being able to turn things around based on what we have seen so far.

This is how we feel.




-- Edited by Davidedin on Wednesday 5th of April 2017 09:49:27 PM



-- Edited by Davidedin on Wednesday 5th of April 2017 09:53:31 PM

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sickly child
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No longer a roller coaster we are falling off the freaking cliff.

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Towdlad
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Welcome Tivoli Tim a decent bunch on here and glad to have you on board. Don't be a stranger, though I do notice that you have exactly the same qualities that qualified Warne(s) as our new manager from your last sentence..

"After all my ramblings I am a Miller through and through and I am disappointed by what this season has brought."

Your not Richie Barker by any chance are you?

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Exetermiller
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I listened to TS's interview.

There were jibes & lots of them at previous managers.

130 players - Evans
39 Days - KJ
Bad summer recruitment - Warnock & Stubbs combined, waste Blackstock etc
Backing managers with a cheque book the managers didn't want to sign - in fact you can hear his anger at this - £2.1m on 2 players, 130 players all have to be funded - small budget? - ref to Huddersfield.

What I'm getting at here is - we haven't had a manager under TS that we all can say is a long term progressive option. The same people are using the same resources and the same principals to appoint the next man destined for the chop.

I do however agree with some things he says. As the OP says (welcome by the way), perspective. We are back to where really - everything considered IS our level playing field. We have League One status for now. Where is our right that we have to appoint someone with history?, if every club did this - no up and coming coaches would be able to make the step into management. I don't think 5 months with the worse group of players we've had in long time is fair. Any of us in Warney's position would want the time to develop (yes with a steep learning curve), and the opportunity to build his / her own team around them.

We should be in no rush to get back to the Championship, too much back office stuff has to happen. Not only that, I get the impression our youth development has really moved to another level, that will take a handful of years for us to start seeing the fruits of that. TS talked about upcoming stars, not stars on their way down. However naivety kicked in again. While a 1yr rolling contract is fine, he reiterated several times a top 5 budget. Why oh why do this, he stated being in business 45 years and calculated risks. Great and fair enough, but in that statement you've already sacked Warney if we don't finish in or very near the Play Offs.

What is, for me the standout theme - trust. Because of our own shortcomings in recruiting the wrong people, and what some of those people have done - its almost like the baord have put up the gloves as they feel like they're in the corner, with nobody to trust - hence promote from within. There are no surprises, self protectionism, the board know what they are getting. But in that they also have set themselves up for even more criticism and vote of no confidence they have now if Warney doesn't do well.

I hope Warney does well, he's deeply ingrained in the club, but so was Ronnie Moore 2nd time round. If he turns into the 'gem' the board 'unanymously' think he could be - it will without doubt reunite the broken relationship between club & 'customers' - if it fails it could be outright disaster.

I don't really like the calculated risk here - the prospects are too poles apart



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Tivoli Tim
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Some fair points and deep down I am not over the moon about all aspects. As a couple of posts state, feelings run high and I understand that. My main point was we live to fight another day.

On the point of youth, we are a cat 3 academy. Piglets, blades and Barnsley are all cat 2. Where are parents going to want to take their kids? In addition our budget is a lot lower I have heard. Like the comment on buying players based on statistical analysis, everything is on a scale......a lower scale. This is not having a go at anyone just a fact that we are living within our means.

For one i am just happy that we are still alive and kicking. The jury is out about warne I get that but I will still be there next season.



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hillsborough miller
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of the jury is 50 50 on warne appointment some like me and brad to mention a few others are not happy.

lets get this season over and judge again in september by which time the team rebuild part 4 will have gelled hopefully

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Towdlad
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Trust is a very important aspect in every walk of life, even more so in business, but where does trust begin when two parties meet?

I believe TS trusted the managers he appointed, and they apparently let him down, (I say apparently because some were sacked in the short term and we will never know for certain). If there was no trust then he has only himself and his back room staff to blame. He/they did the interviews, he/they made the appointments amid great hosannahs as to the calibre and professionalism of the chosen one. The standout candidate who impressed above all others from a catchment of 50 + big names of football (household names so we were told)with exceptional cv's who had applied. And it was he/they that did the firing when the golden boys of football had spent the money and showed no return. It was he/they who hired the deadbeats who spent the money, it is he/they who are responsible.

We are a small club by comparison and perhaps we went into the Championship too early, I accept that. I also except that it was always going to be a struggle. But I DON'T BUY INTO THE THESIS THAT BY DEFINITION WE ARE A L1 LEVEL CLUB because of it. Other well run clubs of comparable size and income, (and I often cite Barnsley here), are in the Championship and are competitive. They are competitive because they have a board of directors that know what they are doing with a workable system. Ours don't, TS and Douglas have all admitted to having made grave mistakes and have a lot to learn. I don't believe our club is L1, or that it is our natural environment. What holds this club back is the non league way in which the club is run and managed that puts us where we are, and I mean no disrespect to non league clubs as some are better run than we are.

Its not about the moaning fans or the happy clappers. Its about bad choices and here I will agree with TS when he says its a gamble, a risk, but a calculated risk and in that respect, in my opinion, his risk assessments have been woeful. Dont blame Refearn, Stubbs, Jackett (the turncoat! ha ha) at al, don't blame greedy agents because ALL clubs have to deal with greedy agents. THEY made the decisions.

Now he's cut down the odds, limited his risk, belt and braces approach. Its now a case of better the devil you know, call it which ever way you will. Will this change of direction work, I don't know, but i fear Warne(s) is not the answer either. But who ever it is to blame it certainly is not the fans fault, we rallied to the call and filled NYS. We invested in the club week in week out, we're entitled to grumble and criticise, when the great clarion call of top half finishes, huge amounts of money to spend, extensions to NYS, cultivating rising stars, managers of outstanding Championship calibre all turns out to be a soggy fart.


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hillsborough miller
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Towdlad wrote:

Trust is a very important aspect in every walk of life, even more so in business, but where does trust begin when two parties meet?

I believe TS trusted the managers he appointed, and they apparently let him down, (I say apparently because some were sacked in the short term and we will never know for certain). If there was no trust then he has only himself and his back room staff to blame. He/they did the interviews, he/they made the appointments amid great hosannahs as to the calibre and professionalism of the chosen one. The standout candidate who impressed above all others from a catchment of 50 + big names of football (household names so we were told)with exceptional cv's who had applied. And it was he/they that did the firing when the golden boys of football had spent the money and showed no return. It was he/they who hired the deadbeats who spent the money, it is he/they who are responsible.

We are a small club by comparison and perhaps we went into the Championship too early, I accept that. I also except that it was always going to be a struggle. But I DON'T BUY INTO THE THESIS THAT BY DEFINITION WE ARE A L1 LEVEL CLUB because of it. Other well run clubs of comparable size and income, (and I often cite Barnsley here), are in the Championship and are competitive. They are competitive because they have a board of directors that know what they are doing with a workable system. Ours don't, TS and Douglas have all admitted to having made grave mistakes and have a lot to learn. I don't believe our club is L1, or that it is our natural environment. What holds this club back is the non league way in which the club is run and managed that puts us where we are, and I mean no disrespect to non league clubs as some are better run than we are.

Its not about the moaning fans or the happy clappers. Its about bad choices and here I will agree with TS when he says its a gamble, a risk, but a calculated risk and in that respect, in my opinion, his risk assessments have been woeful. Dont blame Refearn, Stubbs, Jackett (the turncoat! ha ha) at al, don't blame greedy agents because ALL clubs have to deal with greedy agents. THEY made the decisions.

Now he's cut down the odds, limited his risk, belt and braces approach. Its now a case of better the devil you know, call it which ever way you will. Will this change of direction work, I don't know, but i fear Warne(s) is not the answer either. But who ever it is to blame it certainly is not the fans fault, we rallied to the call and filled NYS. We invested in the club week in week out, we're entitled to grumble and criticise, when the great clarion call of top half finishes, huge amounts of money to spend, extensions to NYS, cultivating rising stars, managers of outstanding Championship calibre all turns out to be a soggy fart.

 totally agree

 

tony has to carry  the can end of for this and what happens next season



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Tivoli Tim
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I don't accept we are L1 club either we can be a regular championship club that is what ambition is all about. I agree we, the fans aren't to blame. I never thought of the trust issue either. I have not believed TS either in that we will be in premier league within a certain amount of seasons. The comments about levels was also meant to be our investment. We spend £150k on a full back and Huddersfield spend £1m on a German defender. They have bigger crowds we don't, we really, don't want to spend beyond our means as per my comment on Ipswich and Bolton. One day the house of cards will collapse. Hopefully we still have some money to actually buy decent talent.

Hopefully the new process will work, time will tell as people have said. One of my worries is that TS listens to people like AS and believes what he is being told. He needs to have courage with his convictions and see this through for better hopefully. Towdlad mentioned it and so did Exeter, as others too, we went too quickly up the ladder



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Exetermiller
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Just want to clear up - I don't believe there is such thing as we are 'L1 / Champ / L2 club etc. All I was saying is where we are right now - off the field especially we are on a level playing field with other L1 clubs

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Towdlad
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Sorry , I didn't intend to imply that either you or Tivoli were saying that we were a L1 club and nothing else much, which we clearly are now. But there are many who shrug their shoulders and accept that we can never be anything else than L1 or L2. and often say we should accept it. Its that mindset I don't accept, otherwise what is the point of having a football club if its just to make the numbers up.

We are where we are, but I don't accept that because we a small fish in a large pond we should blithely accept our lot when others in similar positions clearly make a go of it and are relatively successful. So why can't we??

We have a small following but the fan base will only increase if the product is good enough. The proof of the pudding is in the eating…we can all talk a good game. If we are to have a sustainable Championship club, preferably sooner rather than later, we're going to have to man up and show we are not a bunch of amateurs playing at it, but a hard nosed outfit that knows what it wants and has plans of how to get it, somebody that means business and not to be messed with, rather than the laughable doormats we seem to have become

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Davidedin
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hillsborough miller wrote:
Towdlad wrote:

Trust is a very important aspect in every walk of life, even more so in business, but where does trust begin when two parties meet?

I believe TS trusted the managers he appointed, and they apparently let him down, (I say apparently because some were sacked in the short term and we will never know for certain). If there was no trust then he has only himself and his back room staff to blame. He/they did the interviews, he/they made the appointments amid great hosannahs as to the calibre and professionalism of the chosen one. The standout candidate who impressed above all others from a catchment of 50 + big names of football (household names so we were told)with exceptional cv's who had applied. And it was he/they that did the firing when the golden boys of football had spent the money and showed no return. It was he/they who hired the deadbeats who spent the money, it is he/they who are responsible.

We are a small club by comparison and perhaps we went into the Championship too early, I accept that. I also except that it was always going to be a struggle. But I DON'T BUY INTO THE THESIS THAT BY DEFINITION WE ARE A L1 LEVEL CLUB because of it. Other well run clubs of comparable size and income, (and I often cite Barnsley here), are in the Championship and are competitive. They are competitive because they have a board of directors that know what they are doing with a workable system. Ours don't, TS and Douglas have all admitted to having made grave mistakes and have a lot to learn. I don't believe our club is L1, or that it is our natural environment. What holds this club back is the non league way in which the club is run and managed that puts us where we are, and I mean no disrespect to non league clubs as some are better run than we are.

Its not about the moaning fans or the happy clappers. Its about bad choices and here I will agree with TS when he says its a gamble, a risk, but a calculated risk and in that respect, in my opinion, his risk assessments have been woeful. Dont blame Refearn, Stubbs, Jackett (the turncoat! ha ha) at al, don't blame greedy agents because ALL clubs have to deal with greedy agents. THEY made the decisions.

Now he's cut down the odds, limited his risk, belt and braces approach. Its now a case of better the devil you know, call it which ever way you will. Will this change of direction work, I don't know, but i fear Warne(s) is not the answer either. But who ever it is to blame it certainly is not the fans fault, we rallied to the call and filled NYS. We invested in the club week in week out, we're entitled to grumble and criticise, when the great clarion call of top half finishes, huge amounts of money to spend, extensions to NYS, cultivating rising stars, managers of outstanding Championship calibre all turns out to be a soggy fart.

 totally agree

 

tony has to carry  the can end of for this and what happens next season

 Well said Towd, I agree 100% mate..



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towd codger
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Firstly let me extend a warm welcome to our new poster Tivoli Tim it's always good to see new posters on the Board. Let me say as one of the older posters on this board no football club have a natural level in the Football pyramid. We all aspires at the start of each season to promotion for our Club. I remember many years ago Rotherham enjoying 17 unbroken years in the old Second Division now the Championship. Did we or the Club regard that this was our level? Of course not we aspired to the next division up the First Division now the Premiership. Narrowly missing out on goal average one momentous season. My point, all clubs have to regroup from time to time the trick is to learn from your past errors in order to move forward again. It seems to me the present administration is on a very slow learning curve so it may take a little longer for us to be seen to be on the rise again. But times change and ownership and administrations at football clubs change over time. After 68 years of supporting the Miller's I can testify to that fact. Is the present situation the worst I have seen in that time? No but it comes pretty darned close. But we have always bounced back eventually, everything turns full circle. Whatever I think of the managerial appointment and the way the Club is being run at the moment I will renew my season ticket and those of my family but I obviously respect and understand the views of those who won't. I have felt this level of despair a number of times over the years but both the Club and myself have eventually come out at the other side. Why ? Because it is our Club not Tony Stewart's or any body else who has held the reins over the years. I will continue to support the Miller's because it's what I do. Once a Miller always a Miller.

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ian
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Good OP and some interesting discussion about the impact of the failure of the clubs appointments on the Trust and risk TS is prepared for in the near future.

He has definitely made some very poor choices and backed them up with more. Being shafted by warnock and then Jackett must have changed his beliefs and feelings about the football game. Not to mention his poor football appointments were also quite poor characters all round. I do note however how rude and manipulative and blaming football managers and pundits in general seem to be. Its always someone else to blame it seems, but messers Redfern, Stubbs , Warnock and Jackett and Evans and that plonker from down south all let the club down. ONE WONDERS WHY TS IS DRAWN TO THESE CHARACTERS. Perhaps TS is really hurting and this is one reason he has stuck with Warne. A man he thinks he can trust and control perhaps. 

I do think the club deserves the current criticism as its based on some well established facts of repeated patterns of failure.

Im not optimistic about the future because I still dont see a clear commitment to the future. As Exeter pointed out about the interview TS still does not seem to have a clear vision.

He is not coming across to me as a person with focus in the right places. When I read the articles and listen to the interviews I feel Im hearing the same language about the same issues that have contributed to such a miserable attempt at stabilising the club.



-- Edited by ian on Thursday 6th of April 2017 12:01:33 PM

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hillsborough miller
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towd codger wrote:

Firstly let me extend a warm welcome to our new poster Tivoli Tim it's always good to see new posters on the Board. Let me say as one of the older posters on this board no football club have a natural level in the Football pyramid. We all aspires at the start of each season to promotion for our Club. I remember many years ago Rotherham enjoying 17 unbroken years in the old Second Division now the Championship. Did we or the Club regard that this was our level? Of course not we aspired to the next division up the First Division now the Premiership. Narrowly missing out on goal average one momentous season. My point, all clubs have to regroup from time to time the trick is to learn from your past errors in order to move forward again. It seems to me the present administration is on a very slow learning curve so it may take a little longer for us to be seen to be on the rise again. But times change and ownership and administrations at football clubs change over time. After 68 years of supporting the Miller's I can testify to that fact. Is the present situation the worst I have seen in that time? No but it comes pretty darned close. But we have always bounced back eventually, everything turns full circle. Whatever I think of the managerial appointment and the way the Club is being run at the moment I will renew my season ticket and those of my family but I obviously respect and understand the views of those who won't. I have felt this level of despair a number of times over the years but both the Club and myself have eventually come out at the other side. Why ? Because it is our Club not Tony Stewart's or any body else who has held the reins over the years. I will continue to support the Miller's because it's what I do. Once a Miller always a Miller.

 here here



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gazmadmiller
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Towdlad wrote:

Trust is a very important aspect in every walk of life, even more so in business, but where does trust begin when two parties meet?

I believe TS trusted the managers he appointed, and they apparently let him down, (I say apparently because some were sacked in the short term and we will never know for certain). If there was no trust then he has only himself and his back room staff to blame. He/they did the interviews, he/they made the appointments amid great hosannahs as to the calibre and professionalism of the chosen one. The standout candidate who impressed above all others from a catchment of 50 + big names of football (household names so we were told)with exceptional cv's who had applied. And it was he/they that did the firing when the golden boys of football had spent the money and showed no return. It was he/they who hired the deadbeats who spent the money, it is he/they who are responsible.

We are a small club by comparison and perhaps we went into the Championship too early, I accept that. I also except that it was always going to be a struggle. But I DON'T BUY INTO THE THESIS THAT BY DEFINITION WE ARE A L1 LEVEL CLUB because of it. Other well run clubs of comparable size and income, (and I often cite Barnsley here), are in the Championship and are competitive. They are competitive because they have a board of directors that know what they are doing with a workable system. Ours don't, TS and Douglas have all admitted to having made grave mistakes and have a lot to learn. I don't believe our club is L1, or that it is our natural environment. What holds this club back is the non league way in which the club is run and managed that puts us where we are, and I mean no disrespect to non league clubs as some are better run than we are.

Its not about the moaning fans or the happy clappers. Its about bad choices and here I will agree with TS when he says its a gamble, a risk, but a calculated risk and in that respect, in my opinion, his risk assessments have been woeful. Dont blame Refearn, Stubbs, Jackett (the turncoat! ha ha) at al, don't blame greedy agents because ALL clubs have to deal with greedy agents. THEY made the decisions.

Now he's cut down the odds, limited his risk, belt and braces approach. Its now a case of better the devil you know, call it which ever way you will. Will this change of direction work, I don't know, but i fear Warne(s) is not the answer either. But who ever it is to blame it certainly is not the fans fault, we rallied to the call and filled NYS. We invested in the club week in week out, we're entitled to grumble and criticise, when the great clarion call of top half finishes, huge amounts of money to spend, extensions to NYS, cultivating rising stars, managers of outstanding Championship calibre all turns out to be a soggy fart.

 One of the best posts Ive read in a long time and I completley agree



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